I can still remember the exact spot I was sitting when I knew the Book of Mormon was true. I was in a beach chair on my balcony in Corona Del Mar, California waiting to go surfing. I had just recently started a serious investigation of the Church when I first began reading the Book of Mormon. As I began my study…I realized that the most important thing I could do is find out whether or not the Book of Mormon was true. People that oppose the Church hate when someone says, “I know the Book of Mormon is true”…but I don’t know how else to say it. I know the Book of Mormon is true. (Begin jeering at the cliche’) I’m not going to leave it at that though…I’ll tell you how I know it’s true.
This wasn’t something that I figured out over night. For me…I wanted some evidence and it wasn’t enough for someone else to tell me it was true. The existence of the Book of Mormon had to be logical to me. It had to make sense.
When I started looking around, it seemed like there were people everywhere saying that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. Since I knew that “validity draws fire”, it made me want to read it more and dig deeper into the topic. I noticed that most of the people that condemned the Book of Mormon the loudest, had never even read the book. They were taking the word of their pastor, or mom, or friend and writing off the book for good.
It might be the funniest thing in the world to me when someone tells me with absolute certainty that the Book of Mormon isn’t true after having admitted never actually reading the book themselves.
If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the same Church that Christ established while He was on the earth. It’s as simple as that. So the question of all questions deals with the truthfulness of Book of Mormon. All of the other things that come up are only worth talking about if the Book of Mormon is true which is why I can’t figure out why so many people spend so much time criticizing all of the other aspects or doctrines of the Church. If you’re going to attack something…lets get to the core of it and attack the Book of Mormon. Cut off the head and the body will die right? Knock down the keystone and the structure comes tumbling down. One of my friends and a convert to the Church from in his twenties said something I’ll never forget. In no way did he mean any disrespect to the Book of Mormon when he said it. He was talking about different times in his life when his faith had been challenged and the role that the Book of Mormon played in his life. He said with a smile on his face, “If you were to drop a nuclear bomb on my testimony, the Book of Mormon would be like the little cockroach that climbs its way to the surface from beneath all the rubble.” One cannot deny the existence of that book. It is there for all to read and it survives any and every attack.
If you’re ever having doubts about the restoration or about Joseph Smith, just read the Book of Mormon and ask your self these 11 questions:
- Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
- Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?
- How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.
- How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?
- If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.
- Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?
- Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?
- If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?
- How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.
- How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.
And the most important question to ask yourself is “How do I feel while I read the Book of Mormon?” Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t trust your feelings. We are spiritual beings, and if we can’t trust our feelings, then what do we have?
Over and over again in the Old and New Testament we’re told that we can trust that “still small voice” to guide us in our decisions. (1 Kings 19:12) I can write evidence after evidence to back up the Book of Mormon but each of those evidences I found were only secondary to the whispering of the Spirit I felt that day before I began waxing up my surf board.
If you’ve never read the book, then read it. If it’s what it purports to be…then it might just be the most important book you ever read. In my mind, it would be more of a stretch to believe that Joseph Smith could pull this thing off without divine help than to believe that God preserved a record to come forth in the last days. In fact, it would just be flat out impossible because of the many things he got right that had never even been discovered. You just don’t pull that off without assistance form above. There is no doubt those plates existed. Too many people felt them with their own hands and saw them with their own eyes. Even the people that were trying to steal them from Joseph knew that he had something special. They existed, and now you can hold it in your hand and find out for yourself if its true.
I want my witness to be that of Elder Holland’s. “I want it absolutely clear when I stand before the judgment bar of God that I declared to the world … that the Book of Mormon is true.” (Safety for the Soul)
Greg,
While I admire your passion, I personally have come to the exact opposite conclusion on almost every point you made.
I grew up LDS, served a mission, sealed in the temple. I’ve read the Book of Mormon. I’ve read it a lot. More than 30 times.
I’ve also done a lot of homework on the evidence points that you used. In fact, a lot of LDS scholars have too. And they all agree that most of your points are wrong.
I could break down each point, but it’s been done before. None of your evidences can stand up to inquiry. They look good on the surface, but when you actually research them, you realize, there is no “meat” there.
And, to use your own logic path, if the Book of Mormon is NOT true, then the rest of it fails as well.
I understand the feelings of a testimony. They are strong. They feel pure. They feel pure to devout Muslims too. And to Hindus. And to Pentecostals.
Just because you believe it is true, does not make it true. It’s what we told to our investigators about their existing faith. It holds true for ours as well.
I’m sorry. I hope that you will find the courage to actually investigate your evidence. When you do, I’d love to hear from you.
I believe that if you LOSE your testimony of the Church, It is because you have got off the straight and narrow path. In some way that you find it too hard to remain going to church. The same thing happened to my husband and myself…It was NOT the church that changed, but us….We were no longer living righteously. It is my prayer that you will be honest with yourselves about the matter…we could have gone to another church because it was easier for us. We wouldn’t have to keep the ordinances or word of wisdom. Life is about the choices that we have made…A whole lot were bad, but the good choices, the best choices have to do with our being faithful to our church and our prophet and our Lord and savior…He lives.
He doesn’t believe so must be a sinner. How judgmental can you be? Looks like the “true church” hasn’t your character any.
“I could break down each point, but it’s been done before. None of your evidences can stand up to inquiry. They look good on the surface, but when you actually research them, you realize, there is no “meat” there.”
Source please, I would like scholarly evidence to support the break down of some of a few of Greg’s points.
Look up BH Roberts book called “Studies of the Book of Mormon”. BH Roberts was church historian and a General Authority. In his research of church history he found a book published by Ethan Smith (Oliver Cowdery’s pastor). The book, “View of the Hebrews” was published in 1823 (7 years before the BOM). The basis of the book is that the native americans were descendants of the 10 lost tribes. There are many striking similiarities to this book and the BOM.
Here’s a quote from BH Roberts:
“If from all that has gone before in Part 1, the view be taken that the Book of Mormon is merely of human origin… if it be assumed that he is the author of it, then it could be said there is much internal evidence in the book itself to sustain such a view.
“In the first place there is a certain lack of perspective in the things the book relates as history that points quite clearly to an underdeveloped mind as their origin. The narrative proceeds in characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness, as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency.”
– Studies of the Book of Mormon, by B.H. Roberts, p. 251
The problem is that there are lots of problems with the BOM, there have been tons of changes (not just grammar and punctuation, but doctinal changes). You will never hear about any of this from the church though. They continue to tell the white-washed story with half-truths and leave out anything that could be viewed as negative.
I am still an active member, but with lots of doubts and issues I’m working through. I have empathy for those who have left the church. When one really starts studying the history and problems in the end you see a pile of BIG issues that don’t correlate to what the church teaches about it’s history.
When all the evidence and facts seem to be in direct contradiction to what you have been taught and based your testimony on then it’s difficult to stay a member.
Instead of having the church address these big issues they continue to ignore them. When you have doubts and know facts about our history and the church ignores them it makes you question why?
Not everyone that leaves the church does it because of sin or wanting to sin. They do it because their testimony was based off of certain facts and things they learned. Later in life they realize those initial facts that supported their testimony were not true….
My two cents.
Look up the book Mormonism 101, it has all sources included in the book, many of which are from lds approved sources.
I agree with the above comment. If you’re going to make a broad statement that you can disprove the post, you need to state your ‘sources.’ ‘you came to the opposite conclusion’on each point then you deny the validity of each point? So you came to the opposite conclusion on points that you don’t believe are even true? Do you deny them outright or do you believe that they’re true and have come to opposite conclusions? Just some clarification because that doesn’t make much sense.
While I am an advocate for all to believe what you will, I need to say something. To be a missionary, you declare almost everyday that the Book of Mormon is true and encourage the investigator to read it. Now one of a few scenarios is true 1) if he believes in the book he will also to a degree find in agreance to Greg’s points, he rudely contradicted them in a manner that doesn’t stand in a conversational disagreement. Just a blatant challenge for contention. 2) To disagree that the Book of Mormon was true and if he ever said it he was therefore lying blatantly, either now or then I do not care. What is true will always be truth. 3) The core beliefs were motions and not beliefs. To be sealed is a giant commitment, for eternity. If you don’t believe the Book of Mormon, the keystone of the LDS religion, is true then how can these sacred covenants be true. If the Book of Mormon is a fraudulent book than Joseph smith was NOT a prophet and the LDS church would then be the biggest fraud in history. So 2 things, don’t judge. (I evaluated removing myself and my words go at both sides). The other is please take contentious feelings and comments elsewhere then on a persons blog discussing their conversion. Thank you.
You seem to think Judging others is a sin. Show me where it says that in the scriptures. Unrighteous judgement is bad, judgement in and of itself is expected of every believer. If I know God’s laws and I know you are breaking them I can rightly say to myself “that guy is an idiot because he chose to abandon the truth God gave him instead of choosing to repent” All apostates are the same, they do what they want and justify themselves after the fact. I hope you change your mind and come back at some point, repentance is easier than you think, it just takes a little humility.
You know, passing judgment is a direct violation of Christ’s teachings: “Judge not, lest ye be judged”
Don’t forget that before you open your mouth next time.
I looked into my hat and my rock told me that the other sheep are the Gentiles.My Rock also told me that Mark Hoffman’s forgeries were more accurate than Joe Smiths BOA, hence GBH had to buy them and made sure they were safely locked away.
Thank you Janet for your testimony, faith, & willingness to allow the Savior’s Atonement to give you strength to return and hold on the iron rod. ☺
worst. response. ever.
Yes, I must agree with this comment. If you had been born in the middle east, Greg, you would have had just as strong a testimony of the Muslim faith as you currently have of the Mormon faith. It is all truly a matter of perspective.
You’re probably right. Where you’re born does play into what you believe. Can’t disagree with that.
I was wrapping my head around this fact one day while I was explaining to my children all of the different religions around the world and how Utah has the highest population of Mormons.
The buck doesn’t stop at our birth place. You just cannot make generalized statements like that. And especially in this day and age, where information is available to so many via the Internet, many people are no longer sequestered to their “homeland.”
It’s just a demographic reality – the best predictors for where a person ends up is where they started. Poor people *tend* to remain poor. People with educated parents *tend* to be come more educated than others. Mormon children *tend* to become Mormon adults. It’s not all about choice. It’s choice informed by a substantial existing context. This is why the chance that Boston will become majority LDS in the next two generations is just as unlikely as Utah becoming majority Catholic.
True, birth is a substantial factor in religion. That is why it is not surprising to see so many religion-hating, secular humanist attitudes by those reared in a religion-hating, secular humanist culture. It works both ways, my friends ….
How do you explain the church becoming a world wide church because by your logic, it would only be practiced in Utah…
The same way that if I went around the world giving people lots of money, the children of those people would be likely to also have wealth. A proselytizing church goes out and convinces people to join and once some of them do join that “sticks” and the rules about following their parents kick in. Left to their own devices, very few people would automatically be joining the church. That’s the whole reason missionary programs exist. People have to be convinced that your brand of religion is the correct one. If there is already a well established dominant/controlling religion (see: Catholics in Boston) then the effort is very difficult.
Really? Have you read the Koran? I’m pretty sure I would bee an agnostic if I didn’t have the lds Church. It just makes sense. Each religion has a measure of truth that the Holy Ghost will testify of, almost every church is true to some extent. The only difference with the Mormon Church is that we have a lot more truth because of Joseph Smith and the restoration, and ongoing revelation that we have through the living prophets. Wanna learn more about God and the purpose off life? Talk to the Mormon missionaries.
Then how would you explain the church is growing faster outside of the united states then within? Second question, and I promise no arguement,what religion due you follow now ?
There’s a few problems with Doug’s argument: (1) Someone’s upbringing can influence how they believe, but it’s ultimately a personal decision if someone wants to maintain that religious tradition. Also, what does this criticism have to do with the veracity of a religion?
(2) People change philosophical beliefs all of the time (becoming a Latter-day Saint, Catholic, Atheist, etc.). If someone tells you that they converted from another faith or were disowned by their parents, what happens to this argument? You can’t just claim that they were “brought up that way.”
Greg, you come across as arrogant. Don’t act like you know it all just because you grew up in the church and have read the Book of Mormon several times. Read 2 nephi 33: 10-15.
I don’t know it all…in fact I know very little as so many have pointed out. But I do know this book is good, and true, and awesome. I’m sorry for coming across that way. It is not my intent.
Greg, my ancestors came across the plains. One witnessed Joseph and Hyrum’s bodies brought back. His belief in those men were strong. Some ancestors traveled from England for the church. I believed so strongly that they came across for a reason. I believed so strongly in Joseph Smith’s first vision as written in POGP. I’ve read The Book of Mormon numerous times. However, teaching Sunday School brought up questions and ultimately led me to research that shows The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith were falsely represented to me my entire life. Learning about the Kirkland banking scandal, The Nauvoo Expositor, the strangeness of Zion’s Camp, “The Late War,” The Book of Abraham, The Kinderhook Plates, etc. I cannot turn back and claim my former beliefs over again. I thought “I knew.” In fact, I would have told you “I know” about year ago.
I used to be the most Molly Mormon you could know then too. To think, my disbelief all began with simple research starting in Sunday School. Turning to “History of the Church” opened up more questions than answering them. From there FAIR LDS, from there, more questions . . .
Faith is greatly admired in Mormon culture. I have humbled myself enough to go against the grain. Trust me, in Mormonville, if you stop believing it takes humility to admit that. Especially when you’re husband held high positions. Especially when all of your friends are Mormon.
I stopped believing, and I tried to keep going to church despite that fact. But hearing testimonies made me feel sick and sad when I no longer believed them and saw how members were taught to just regurgitate the same five testimony points, when most of them didn’t even know about Joseph Smith’s multiple first vision accounts or the pile of other things I now know.
*Sorry, meant Kirtland Banking Scandal.
You didn’t come across that way at all. This was a great read for me. Thanks!
My parents were baptized when I was 7 years old, which means I was thankfully raised sorrounded by the gospel. That doesn’t mean I got my testimony automatically. All members MUST pay the price know by themselves if the BofM is true. Like Greg, I still remember the time and place I was when I got my own epiphany! This confirmation is written in my heart that I can’t simply deny it! I am very curious as well and have read all sorts of info that come to my hands. Now I know better and have NEVER found anything from doctrine in the Bible, or archeological evidence that contradicts this book! However the most important part is doctrine! It’s all about our Savior! I have a better relationship with Jesus Christ by reading the Book of Mormon. No one can deny it. The Book of Mormon is not a history book! Let’s leave scholars with their own points of view and let’s focus on the doctrine of this wonderful book. Thanks Greg for your post!
A faith in Christ and in light is always good. Please don’t tear down anyone’s belief no matter how much you believe them to be wrong. We are supposed to build each other up in our faiths. Greg has a beautiful testimony and that should be respected by all people from all religions. For Greg this testimony is a direct revelation from God to him. What man has the right to take that away from him. So thank you Greg for sharing.
The arrogance here is astounding. There are a lot of people a lot smarter than Scott, yet here he sits trying to tell people that essentially if they believe the BOM is true it’s because they haven’t really investigated it.
Scott, I’m sorry you lost your testimony. If you ever really had it to begin with. Hopefully you can find it again when you’re not swept up in your own limited intellect.
I was going to reply to this blog, but this comment exactly coincides with my thoughts. You might say i’m the BOM to your reply. (Or would that be sacrilegious?) 😉
I too was a missionary, yada, yada… And I would just like to add to some of the other comments on here: Some people leave the church, (If not most) not because we have lost our moral compass, not that we have some personal vendetta between some sort of leadership or member, not that we are just lying to ourselves and we really know it’s true. The reason why thousands of members are gladly running away from the church, is because we are educated people and are not afraid to look honestly at things in life, even the things that you believe so badly are true. It’s not about what’s better, it’s about what is true. And what is true is that the mormon church is completely false, and as this reply said, this truth has been proven over and over and over again… you just have to wake up.
Sounds like a classic Scott Rufner comment, without the sarcasm or condescension.
Really? I’m pretty sure I would bee an agnostic if I didn’t have the lds Church. It just makes sense. Each religion has a measure of truth that the Holy Ghost will testify of, almost every church is true to some extent. The only difference with the Mormon Church is that we have a lot more truth because of Joseph Smith and the restoration, and ongoing revelation that we have through the living prophets. Wanna learn more about God and the purpose off life? Talk to the Mormon missionaries.
I have always been entertained by all the empirical evidence that people seem to require about the Book of Mormon but not the Bible. I think people miss the point that FAITH is the big difference between science or philosophy and religion. Religion requires a degree of faith. Also it is so entertaining to see how much effort people will go through to promote negative vibes about something. Are they on a crusade to disprove the Book of Mormon because they are concerned for the welfare of others, I sincerely doubt it.
It is interesting that you say that all of the authors points are invalid but you give no evidence to support your claim.
But then again it doesn’t matter to me if many of the authors points could be debunked, I know that the book of Mormon is true for myself, my evidence…. the change that it has made in my life and that of my family.
I am thinking that you had that same testimony but did not maintain your testimony with continual scripture study and prayer (And perhaps righteous living??)
Like others here, I have come to the opposite conclusion you have. Points 6 and 8 seem to be the easiest to deal with off the top of my head, so I’ll address those. The “other sheep” question is simple – it refers to the gentiles (people not of Jewish decent)
8. If you read the prophesy in Ezekiel very closely – you’ll see that it refers in verse 19 to the Stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephriam, If you read your book of Mormon closely – you’ll realize that Lehi (and therefore the Nephites and Lamanites) are not of the tribe of Ephriam, but of the tribe of Manasseh, Joseph’s OTHER son. see Alma 10:3 ( https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/10.3?lang=eng#2 )
And if you think about it, there’s no way the bible could be the stick of Judah – For example Moses was a Levite, Paul was a Benjaminite. That accounts for a rather substantial portion of the bible right there. You could say that its the stick of Judah because it ultimately focuses on the “Lion of the Tribe of Judah” (Rev. 5:5). But would’nt that make the Book of Mormon part of the stick of Judah? its “another testament of Jesus Christ”
Let me add one more – #5 – best explanation is that there are a number of half truths and outright falsehoods in the book of Mormon, despite its testemony of Jesus, that it can easily throw people off the right track. Maybe later I’ll post more on this specific issue
You’re spot on Greg.
I’m going to second Kevin’s comment and ask that Scott provide his “evidence” that the Book of Mormon is not true. We can’t forget that there are a lot of people out there who hate the Book of Mormon (can’t understand why) who will conjure up anything they want and call it “evidence.” I’ll never understand why people like Scott find sources who hate the LDS church to be more credible than God. Talk about putting your trust in the unstable minds of men.
Truth is not a matter of perspective. That’s silly. If it was then truth could not exist. Truth is truth no matter where you’re from or how you’re raised. It is not subject to change nor can it be molded or shaped based on a persons own opinions and beliefs. At some point, we will all know the truth and where we were born won’t even matter.
At the end of the day, the only way can know if the Book of Mormon is true or not is to follow the counsel in Moroni 10:3-5 and just pray about it. It’s really not that hard, if you’re right is in the right place of course.
Hi, just one question. If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days is not true then which one is it in your opinion? And why ? Honest question.
I am LDS and I will remain unshakable in these last days. While I understand that the adversary is working over time, there isn’t anything that can shake me from the firm testimony I have of a loving Father in Heaven, our Savior Jesus Christ and the true gospel restored to the earth. There has not been one credible source that has been able to prove that the Book of Mormon is untrue.
What happens is that people just decide religion is not for them. It’s easy to poke holes into anything when you do not want to believe anymore. “Free” agency was given to you as a gift and something that cannot be taken away. I have traveled and worked in almost every part of the world. And I love watching people cling to their faith in a world of chaos. I have never once tried to pull people from what they believe. But I do share my strong testimony of the truth that I have.
I find it fascinating that former LDS members do whatever they can to discredit their former faith. But I rarely hear them discredit any other faith. In fact they lift other faiths without even knowing what they believe. I think it makes them feel better.
I could not be more grateful for what I know, and all that comes with my strong faith. And as I see family members, friends and strangers do everything in their power to change how I think and feel, it gives me greater resolve to stand firm and live my life in a way that the generations after me will know that I stood for something and experienced the joy spoken of in the pages of an amazing record, The Book of Mormon.
You can read the Book of Mormon 100 times and still won’t know the power and truth it contains until you’ve witnessed it through the power of the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost only comes to those who are prepared, not learned!
Could I ask what religion or faith do you follow now?
Who are these scholars and why should I care. Let me make this real easy, long after these scholars are long dead and forgotten, people will still be talking about Nephi, Lehi, Mormon and Moroni.
Tell me this, if The Book of Mormon is a hoax, why won’t it die off? Why do thousands of people each year convert after discovering it? Why do so many find strength from it? Have you ever heard of a nearly 200-year-old hoax with THAT much power? Every single time the powers that stand against it and the LDS faith try to kill the church off for good, they fail. They killed Joseph, they forced the early Saint’s from their homes, they attack the modern Saints on an intellectual level, and yet while some do fall away, the church itself stands strong and grows more powerful.
Why? Why does such a “flawed” organization like so many of the enemies of the church call it become more powerful? Why does the so-called “liar” Joseph Smith still serve as such a discussed figure in both American and religious history? Tell me, can you name just one religious scholar from the early to mid 1800’s? You can’t destroy what God gives power to, period. This is God’s church, Joseph is a prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is the Word of God.
Just because you don’t believe in something, doesn’t make it not true. We can have these circular arguments, but one day when you face death and there is no going back, you’ll shed your lack of faith and become a believer on the spot! Happens to everyone.
Your sources also deserve scrutiny. The point you make in this comment can be applied to your claims as well. I have done research. More importantly, I have prayed as the Book of Mormon challenges all of its readers to do. All your sources are the work of men whom you do not know and trust blindly. The source of every devout Mormon’s trust in the Book of Mormon should be, and most often is, the pure source of truth, our Father in Heaven. How long had it been since you had sincerely prayed when you chose to leave the church? Did you ever seek out a true confirmation to begin with? Or did you live a life of blindly going through the motions and never understanding why?
I used to think I could defend it with the same arguments you’ve used. But if you were to dig much deeper, you’ll find others who have done the digging can prove those points otherwise. And the digging would’ve been able to have been done without going to anti-mormon sources at all. Sorry. I’ve been a faithful member for almost 20 years. And even some of the essays put out by the church recently has affected me.
Sorry Scott. My post is meant for Greg. 🙂
While “evidence” or the lack thereof can be debated for years and years, you are missing a very important point. You must have a desire to seek the truth. Secondly you must ask for the truth to be reveled to you. And then you must have faith and keep it. We are told not to condemn other faiths. And we call these people investigators because they are seeking God’s truth.
Scott my experience has been somewhat different from you. I did not grow up LDS, but am a convert to the LDS church. As I studied and learned about the Church, I strongly believed and felt that it was true, enough so that I desired to serve a mission and tell others about it. But before I left on a mission, something even more amazing happened. This occurred right after bearing my testimony to a group of people. I told them that “I knew the Church was true” (meaning the Book of Mormon is Gods word, Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ’s Church restored), and immediately following those words, the Holy Ghost bore a powerful and emotional witness to me that what I testified of was true! Later on my mission and throughout my life, the Holy Ghost has continued to witness truth to me. I feel the presence of the Holy Ghost when learning or testifying of Jesus Christ or when reading the Book of Mormon. I know what life is like devoid of the Holy Ghost, and now as a member, I know what its influence, witness, and companionship feels like. I know that you too can know for a certainty that the Book of Mormon is true, but it will take sincere and honest prayer to your Heavenly Father, studying it again, seeking a witness, and being willing to follow. It may not come in the time and way that you desire, but it will come if you sincerely seek after these things to know them yourself. Scott I do know that God loves you and that the Book of Mormon is true.
Scott, there’s a huge difference between wishful thinking and knowing something. Just because you don’t know something that doesn’t discredit what Greg what posted. The same challenge can be issued towards you.
Muslims, Hindus, Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics or whatever don’t follow the structure of the original Church with prophets, apostles, active revelation, vibrant missionary work, and temple work. Only 1 church does, baby – The LDS Church!
thanks for this! it really helped me. I have a question – you say that many people touched the plates with their own hands , what are the names of those people? I would love to see documentation on that.
This link will take you to the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses – 11 in all not including Joseph.
You simply just open the Book of Mormon and the front page is the testimony of three witnesses that were given the book to feel and touch by an angel, and then another eight witnesses that say they saw and felt the plates also.
The names of those who saw and handled the plates are: Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng & https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng.
I hope this helps.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng
The Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
The Testimony of Eight Witnesses
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng
The Three Witnesses; Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer.
Look at ‘The Testimony of Three Witnesses’ and ‘The Testimony of Eight Witnesses’ in the front of each copy of The Book of Mormon. 11 other men besides Joseph who saw and handled the gold plates.
Immediately after the introduction you will find the testimony of 3 witnesses, who were shown the plates by the same angel that helped Joseph find them, and immediately after that you will find the testimony of 8 witnesses, who were shown the plates by Joseph.
Do you have a copy of the Book of Mormon available? Or you can find the Book of Mormon online at LDS.org. What you are looking for is in the first few pages of the book.
pangwitch88 that is a great question. In the beginning pages of The Book of Mormon, there are the testimonies of the 3 witnesses and also the 8 witnesses. These individuals all saw the plates.
3 Witnesses:
Oliver Cowdery
Martin Harris
David Whitmer
8 Witnesses:
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer Jr.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith Sr.
Samuel Smith
Hyrum Smith
He may be referring to the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses – “…and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon…”
Christian Whitmer Jacob Whitmer Peter Whitmer, Jun. John Whitmer Hiram Page Joseph Smith, Sen. Hyrum Smith Samuel H. Smith
At the beginning of the Book of Mormon are the testimonies of the witnesses…. should be easy enough to find 🙂
At the very beginning of the Book of Mormon there is the introduction, then there is a page for the 3 witnesses and then 8 more witnesses. It tells their testimonies and knowledge of what they saw. If you go to http://www.lds.org and type into the search engine 3 witnesses or 8 witnesses, it will show up. Also, any questions you have you can go to Mormon.org and their are people on chat who can help you there. 🙂 good luck and I hope you find all you are looking for!
In the front of the Book of Mormon is a page with the testimonies of two groups. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses, who saw the plates and bear witness that an angel showed it to them, while at the same time they heard the voice of the Lord declaring that it was true. Then there is the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses, who simply held the plates, and they bear witness of the physical nature of the gold plates…the writings, the structure, etc. Plus we know that Joseph’s wife at some point got to see them as well. So, not counting Joseph, that’s twelve others who actually physically touched it. Of those twelve, at least eight left the Church, and at six of them never rejoined it. All of the Three Witnesses left, and two were rebaptized late in life. The third heavily criticized Joseph Smith, whom he though was a fallen prophet, but never would deny that experience of handling the plates and the Book of Mormon. It’s fascinating stuff.
For the names and your own research, you can start at wikipedia and just search for “Three Witnesses” or “Eight Witnesses”.
Look in the front of the Book of Mormon. There are two separate documents written by people who touched and handled the plates. They wrote and signed these documents so the world would know what they saw. Even more interesting is that even though some of them eventually left the church, none of them ever denied that they had seen the plates.
It’s right at the front of the Book of Mormon. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses and The Testimony of Eight Witnesses. They were real people who can be found in historical record.
Greg … by your post it seems you are rationalizing and looking for how’s , what’s , and why’s . But you miss the most important fact . And it’s not the book itself (which can be proven fraudulent with one single verse ), but the fact that you’re entire religion is based on a magic rock .
May I please see this verse? Also can you please include with it the context as well? Thanks! 🙂
Let’s say you are right. It is all a lie. At the end of the day we are good people. We are not taught to lie, cheat, steal, be greedy, hurt others, follow Satan, lead others to Satan, talk bad about other religions, not have charity, not be kind and loving, not to accept everyone and love everyone etc. etc. If it is all a lie who is gaining something from it? What would be the purpose of the whole lie? We dont pay our leaders like other churches, so money is out. I do know this Church is true and I love it with all my heart. But I’ll never understand why it’s such a big deal to non believers that it’s “all a lie.” We aren’t hurting anybody so why do you care if it’s a lie?
Just curious, but what one verse can prove it fraudulent? Not trying to argue, I would just like to know.
Enlighten me, what is the one single verse?
I would love to see this one verse… and if your speaking of a verse from the bible, the book of Samuel speaks of what you call a magical rock as the Urim and Thummim. Read your own book before you criticize another please. If the Urim and Thummim doesn’t exist then the bible is fraud too…
Richard…. give me that verse please. Because I’ve got thousands proving just the opposite. (“magic rock”? really??… sigh)
1. He wasn’t uneducated. Not having formal schooling does not make you uneducated. He also could have easily enlisted the help of Sidney Rigdon and others.
2.Chiasmus isn’t anything special. Plenty of modern literature contains Chiasmus. Please see the work of the Johnson brothers.
3. He didn’t. The geography he gives is very vague. This comes from the work of Jeff Lindsay and his “research” is completely bunk.
4. The names are not Semitic. Either you already know this and are being completely dishonest or you have looked into a couple random names that have very loose linguistic connections to Hebrew. Look at the work of any modern linguist and you will find that there isn’t a shred of Semitic influence in ancient American languages. Joseph was good at making up nonsensical names. Look at the names of the facsimiles. We have the source material and Joseph couldn’t have been more wrong,
5. Again, look at the work of the Johnson brothers. Joseph had plenty of influences to help him write the book including the Bible, The Late War
and others. Just because the modern “prophets” have created the false dichotomy that the book is from God or Satan doesn’t mean that is the way it is. It didn’t come from God or Satan. It came from a man or men.
6. Who knows why it says that in John. The bible is full of mysteries and unintelligible thoughts.
7.Those volumes you speak of are not scholarly in the least.
8. What makes you think the stick of Judah is the Bible? There isn’t an honest biblical scholar who has ever come to that conclusion.
9. Read the accounts of the witnesses. They didn’t actually see the plates. The saw it with their spiritual eyes. Those that handled the plates, handled them while they were covered with a cloth. Also, look at Joseph’s translation track record. Kinder hook plates: we have the source material, and he got everything wrong. Book of Abraham: we have the source material, he got everything wrong. Book of Mormon: we don’t have the source material and he got everything right? I don’t think so.
10. It hasn’t gone uncovered. The book is an obvious fraud. From its innumerable anachronisms, to the fake language it was said to have been written in, the book has been proved to be a fraud. Not wanting to the accept the evidence is part of your own bias and predisposition to want to believe.
Well, Michael Bluth, I appreciate that you posted this. It saved me a lot of time. Point for point, it is almost exactly what I wanted to say, and it is refreshing to see some truth on this page. Well said, sir.
Kennelmouth, thank you for posting a thank you to Michael Bluth for posting exactly what you wanted to convey. Your comment is likewise helpful to me:)
False.
Why?
Explain yourself. It is poor form to simply assert that something is false while providing no explanation. If those points are false – why?
I like Greg’s perspective on this. I have one question to add in response to all the debunking efforts. What in the world did Joseph Smith have to gain from this. He didn’t get rich. One could argue that he wanted power. But I believe that someone who wanted power wants it for a better more comfortable life style. That is not what Joseph Smith got. He was beaten several times for his beliefs, tarred and feathered several times for professing what he did. He was jailed cumulatively for about two years in miserable conditions. He was hated, as well were the other witnesses to the plates. Yet all they had to do to make it stop was simply deny what they had seen. After enough beatings, if it was a fake, you would think that one would eventually raise their hand and say “okay, you got us.” But none of those men did. Not one.
Michael Bluth. after reading your comment it dawned on me that you only quickly summarise what others have said without actually looking at the defense at all since these claims have been proven wrong over and over again.
Let’s look at these claims shall we and I will copy paste the answers from scholars:
“1. He wasn’t uneducated. Not having formal schooling does not make you uneducated. He also could have easily enlisted the help of Sidney Rigdon and others.”
-The Church never taught that Joseph Smith was “illiterate.” The official account of the First Vision refutes this, since it demonstrates that Joseph was fully capable of reading and understanding the Bible. The statement from the critics that Joseph’s family “wasn’t a family of illiterates” argues against a point that is never being made.
More to the point, equating Joseph Smith’s “home schooling” to 21st-century home schooling is a false comparison. It was Joseph himself that said in his 1832 history that he was “deprived of the benefit of an education.” One must ask the question: Why did Joseph’s contemporaries not think him capable of producing the Book of Mormon? 21st century “homeschooling” has nothing to do with education on the frontier of 19th century America.
See the full article with more facts: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Education
“2.Chiasmus isn’t anything special. Plenty of modern literature contains Chiasmus. Please see the work of the Johnson brothers.”
-Small, “trivial” chiastic structures containing only a few elements might well arise through chance or English rhetoric, especially when other elements within the text are not considered in the analysis.
However, critics ignore numerous complex, subtle, and meaningful chiamus when they assume that all of the Book of Mormon’s inverted parallel structures are so simple. On the other hand, more work needs to be done to evaluate the hundreds of proposed chiastic readings of the Book of Mormon.[1] Some of them will inevitably end up as less likely than others, though statistical analysis has sustained the presence of some Book of Mormon chiasmus,[2] and failed to support it in some of Joseph’s modern writings.[3]
And for LDS members, the value of these readings is less about demonstrating historicity in the text, and more about interpreting the text with the intentions of the authors in mind, as viewed through their use of rhetorical figures.
I might add that no one even thought about searching chiasmus in the book of Mormon until 1960’s
Here’s the full article, that must be read in order to fully appreciate this issue and to see it factually well constructed: http://en.fairmormon.org/Chiasmus
“3. He didn’t. The geography he gives is very vague. This comes from the work of Jeff Lindsay and his “research” is completely bunk.”
-By calling Jeff Lindsays site a bunk without giving any examinable content for your argument, makes you seem either lazy, or ignorant, or just bunk yourself. Sorry to say that but there’s no other way to see it. Here’s the most popular and most extensively studied geographical proposition for the geography: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Sorenson_1955
To read his conclusion based on the evidence he brought forth, you can read either, An ancient american setting for the book of Mormon, or Sorenson’s Mormon’s map. Sorenson also released recently a book titled Mormon’s codex, which includes all of the research date on the subject from his 60 years of academic career in the subject of BOM geography and where it happened all. I suppose he has more insight into the matter than you Michael, with all due respect. As far as I got it, Lindsay was following Sorenson’s work in his articles and to call them bunk with your far more limited knowledge on the issue than Sorenson’s, is quite amazing prejudice.
“4. The names are not Semitic. Either you already know this and are being completely dishonest or you have looked into a couple random names that have very loose linguistic connections to Hebrew. Look at the work of any modern linguist and you will find that there isn’t a shred of Semitic influence in ancient American languages. Joseph was good at making up nonsensical names. Look at the names of the facsimiles. We have the source material and Joseph couldn’t have been more wrong,”
-The names are so many and it is impossible to prove or disprove such a huge undertaking as to analyze over 200 names, so here is a link that does provide scholar’s quotes on research on few of the issues concerning some book of Mormon names: http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme20.shtml
These evidences are not Lindsay’s, he quotes scholarly studies on the issue.
This is at least a proof that you are making a mammoth undertaking into a simplistic one and this evidence does show that definitely these names, in this article, are genuine, the other 200 names can be debated later elsewhere.
Concerning your quick remark about Book of abraham facsimilies, see here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Facsimiles/Facsimile_1
Here’s a quick summary why this assumption of Smith’s wrong translation is very premature: Hugh Nibley notes the following,
It is important to emphasize what many Egyptologists are insisting on today as never before, namely, the folly of giving just one interpretation and one only to any Egyptian representation. This is the pit into which Joseph Smith’s critics have always fallen: “This cannot possibly represent ‘A’ because it represents ‘B’!” “The value of an Egyptian presentation,” Eberhard Otto reminds us, “depended on seeing the greatest possible number of meanings in the briefest possible formulation.” Heretofore, critics of the Joseph Smith explanations have insisted on the least possible number of meanings, namely one, to every item, and as a result have not only disagreed widely among themselves, but also exposed their efforts to drastic future revision. The Egyptians “considered it a particular nicety that symbols should possess multiple significance,” wrote Henri Frankfort, “that one single interpretation should not be the only possible one.”
These are not Mormon scholars speaking here! This explains why the scholars who critique Smith, also disagree with their translations or explanations.
“5. Again, look at the work of the Johnson brothers. Joseph had plenty of influences to help him write the book including the Bible, The Late War
and others. Just because the modern “prophets” have created the false dichotomy that the book is from God or Satan doesn’t mean that is the way it is. It didn’t come from God or Satan. It came from a man or men.”
-The late War had nothing in similarity with the Book of Mormon Warfare which is exactly opposite to the romantic idea of war held by frontier Americans at the time. If Bible was his influence, isn’t it interesting that his mom said that Joseph had never read the bible completely before his 18th birthday. You have not given any examples how others helped him to write the book, just to say that others helped him make you only seem less honest, since you claim things that you can’t even support.
“6. Who knows why it says that in John. The bible is full of mysteries and unintelligible thoughts.”
-That is supposed to be your answer? He only says that other sheep will hear his voice, since the Apostles preaching wasn’t the same as hearing the very word’s of Jesus, it makes a good argument that others would be visited by him. Columbus used the same scripture to argue that other Israelis could be found in remote places of the earth.
“7.Those volumes you speak of are not scholarly in the least.”
-Collecting Indian traditions and legends is not scholarly? Veytia collected also the traditions of Mayans, and he spoke of very much similar stuff with the book of Mormon but he was no scholar either since his evidence is not supporting your agenda. thanks for your all knowing wisdom.
“8. What makes you think the stick of Judah is the Bible? There isn’t an honest biblical scholar who has ever come to that conclusion.”
– Quite simple. ezekiel was to take a wooden leaf and write upon it, suggests that it is a record of some sort, especially since in Babylon, where Ezekiel lived, they used wooden writing tablets for records. therefore it makes perfect sense to see this wooden thing, in which Ezekiel writes upon, as a book. Bible is the most sacred record of the Jewish identity, so it makes perfect sense that when Ephraim leads the ten tribes to join with the Jews, that both of their sacred histories would be joined together. In fact, I remember remotely that 2 early Christian church fathers also believed these sticks of Ezekiel to represent books, or scriptures.
“9. Read the accounts of the witnesses. They didn’t actually see the plates. The saw it with their spiritual eyes. Those that handled the plates, handled them while they were covered with a cloth. Also, look at Joseph’s translation track record. Kinder hook plates: we have the source material, and he got everything wrong. Book of Abraham: we have the source material, he got everything wrong. Book of Mormon: we don’t have the source material and he got everything right? I don’t think so.”
-Here is all the documentations about the claim of spiritual eyes: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/%22Eye_of_Faith%22_and_%22Spiritual_Eye%22_statements_by_Martin_Harris
In a quick summary I can say this; One person, who was not one of the 11 witnesses, said how he saw the plates under the cloth and weighed them, but anti mormon sources try to make it seem like this is one of the actual witnesses. No one else, bersides Martin Harris, ever claim any spiritual visions in the way Martin did. So whatever Harris said would not change their testimonies. but Harris only spoke in Scriptural terms making eye of faith and spiritual eye something more real and accurate than mortal eyes, but never claimed that his flesh and blood experience didn’t happen. Basically Martin had such a strong faith in the plates that he could see them trough the eye of faith before he was shown the actual plates, that doesn’t take away the fact that later on he did also behold the real thing which he was anticipating trough faith.
Book of Abraham link was provided already and since the Kinderhook plate story needs more space, these guys provide a very logical and interesting explanation in this article here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Kinderhook_Plates
“10. It hasn’t gone uncovered. The book is an obvious fraud. From its innumerable anachronisms, to the fake language it was said to have been written in, the book has been proved to be a fraud. Not wanting to the accept the evidence is part of your own bias and predisposition to want to believe.”
-Interesting how you have no anachronisms to give as an example here if they are so numerous? What fake language? you mean reformed egyptian? Hieratic is reformed egyptian, so is Demotic and Aramaic is reformed Hebrew. So the idea that one language would be reformed, is no fraud at all, we just don’t know the BOM language, but the idea is true. How could I accept your evidence when you have provided non? Contest with the evidence my sources here have documented.
Thanks for this post, it gave me a reason to go read some more of these things and rekindled my interest to these topics concerning the book of Mormon.
So, curious then as to what you think his motivations were. WHY would he write a book that so obviously promotes Jesus Christ and his life, and that we should follow it. For notoriety? For fame? For money? He had his First Vision at age 14. WHether one believes it or not, he told many people about it. Why would a 14 year old do that? If he was doing it for attention, the majority of attention he got was negative. Any 14 year old I know would have dropped it when it so obviously backfired. Unless it was that powerful and true. And, let’s suppose that it is false and he was looking for attention. At what point does he decide that he needs to write a fraudulent book? He doesn’t even mention it until he has the vision of Moroni telling him about the plates. This is around the time he is 20. So, at age 20 he’s decided to create a false religion based on a new book about Jesus Christ…a book that, whether you believe its origins or not, if you were to follow its teachings would make you a better person. And even then, why make fake plates with a fake language just to translate it? Why not just write it from scratch and say that it was inspired by God? I mean, if your ultimate goal is fame and your message in the book isn’t going to be any different, why go through all of that trouble?
He was never rich, but he was certainly famous. But if was such a self-serving fraud, how in the world does it have so many followers? I mean, if its all fake, then why would so many well educated, good men devote their lives to it? It doesn’t make any sense. What would the men who have served as members of the Twelve Apostles over the years have to gain? They’re not famous. They’re not getting rich from it.
You can argue points about the Book of Mormon, and there are certainly some parts of it that you could say are red flags. Citing Mormon scholars doesn’t prove it, and citing non-Mormon scholars doesn’t disprove it. To believe it, it takes a leap of faith. If it could be proven, everyone would be Mormon. If you could actually disprove it, then no one would be (or at least, not nearly as many millions as there are.)
The bottom line is I have lived its precepts, my wife has as well, as do my children, and we are happy. I am a better man for living by the tenets of this religion than I would be if I wasn’t. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” As a whole, Mormons are good, honest, hard-working people. You can nit pick and find fault, and every group of people has members that are bad examples, but by and large, Mormons are good, happy people. I love being a Mormon. I hope those of you who are not (whether you ever were, or not) can respect that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI
this presentation is pretty weak, he skims over a lot of his materal and i really wish he would have cited his sources. The only thing that was interesting was the First Book of Napolean. Just because a news paper made it to the US in a month does not mean that this book would have made it in that same amount of time. Also how do we know that Joseph came in contact with it, he just assuming that? His presentation is thin and if i were a teacher i would give him a C-. But again i will say the first book of Napolean was interesting. I feel that book should be studied by a skilled scholar and he/she should really look at the phrase “and it came to pass”.
Why do so many mormons refer to Joseph Smith as an “uneducated boy” when trying to prove the Book of Mormon isn’t a fraud. Do you realize he was in his early twenties when he started to dictate the BoM? He was also surrounded by teachers and obviously smart enough to read and study the bible.
He was self educated and it does bother me too that my fellow members often refer to him this way. I think they often do that because he was only 14 at the time of the first vision. I don’t believe him to be a fraud, I believe he was a man that searched for truth his entire life through all sources he could find, including the bible.
Okay Tyler, so assuming that you’re over 20 years old, AND have the internet and every other information source imaginable at your fingertips, including college and religion professors (and I assume that you’re “obviously” smart enough to read the Bible), why don’t you let me know when YOU can write something that can even come close to being even as good of a STORY book alone (putting all religious aspects aside) as the Book of Mormon.
Now include all of the religious jazz….I would be willing to bet my life that you wouldn’t even be able to come within a hundred miles of the Book of Mormon. No one ever has. Until someone can duplicate what Joseph Smith did in 65 working days, they will never have the right to tear him down as they have attempted. The greatest minds of our time haven’t done it, Joseph Smith on his own couldn’t have done it. The Bible itself, which I believe also to be the word of God, took years to translate, and by multiple of the greatest scholars of their time…and some of you probably think that the Bible is a fraud too (laughable).
So again, until you write your own book and convert millions of people to your “fake faith”, and ALSO make millions of enemies thereby (another testament of it’s validity by the way…bet you didn’t know you were fulfilling prophecy did you?) you will have no credible right to tell me, or anyone else that the Book of Mormon is false. Try and do it, then we’ll talk. I can’t do it, you can’t do it, and no one else can do it. The Book of Mormon is not Joseph’s book, and he could not have made it up, it is simply something that no one is capable of, unless there is some divine assistance involved. The authors were prophets, and it’s translator was a prophet.
For those calling for evidence, the Book of Mormon IS the evidence. All your questions about the “magic rocks” and “shiny people” appearing to Joseph are put to silence with the Book of Mormon. There is a reason you never see any national or world wide accusations that the Book of Mormon is false, only these petty little online threads and books nipping at the heels of the believers. The Book always stands after cross examination, always, and society cannot answer for it’s remarkable origin, UNTIL they duplicate the same…which is something we just will never see. And IF it does happen, I give you all the right to call me and my people liars and false witnesses. Put our names next to Joseph’s, that will be an honor.
Opposition has always been around when light begins to shine, and our time is no different. Say what you will, but your anger only serves as fulfilled prophecy and the fire that will purify the humble (which I admit, was not how I came across today…nor did I intend to). I give you all the rights to slander my character, but don’t slander my God or His work when they stare you in the face…even though I know you will continue to do so. The Book of Mormon is true. Thank you Greg for your testimony.
The string of logical fallacies and sheer absurdities in this post make me question if it’s serious, or if this blog is just one giant parody, ala Bro. Jake’s YouTube videos.
But assuming you are serious, I will address a couple points. Truth be told, I don’t even know where to begin…but I don’t have the time/energy to address them all.
“Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?”
This statement is riddled with circular reasoning. A skeptic does not accept that the BoM is ancient scripture, historically accurate, nor prophetic in nature to begin with…which is the original assertion of your post. Whether or not an uneducated boy came up with it on his own is irrelevant. But to address the points on their own merits…to call the BoM historically accurate is laughable. The evidence that people have conjured up over the years is weak coincidences that strain credulity. On the flip side, there is a mountain of hard evidence against the historicity of the BoM. As for the prophesies, if you believe the BoM is a 19th century work then there is a very simple explanation for the handful of prophecies it got right up until 1830. How many prophecies has the BoM made post-1830, a book supposedly written for our time?
“With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.”
The hoax HAS been uncovered. As I said before, there is a mountain of evidence pointing to a fraud, and people have been shouting it from the rooftops for decades. No credible, non-Mormon scientist believes or uses the BoM as a historically accurate document. It’s not that the hoax has not been uncovered…it’s that people like yourself are unwilling to accept it. You put your fingers in your ears and go “La la la la la. I feel good when I read it, therefore it is true.” Imagine where mankind would be if this technique were the epistemological gold standard. The Internet and this blog you use to spew forth your nonsense would not even exist.
I invite you to read this book with an open heart and hear the point of view from the missionaries. If you do so objectively and with an open heart you will come to know with millions of others that it is true. Because you don’t understand it and you don’t it agree with it you call it nonsense. Seek understanding, and then seek to be understood. It will change your life.
Oh you poor man. Non of those things you list have anything to do with proving if it is true.
Conmen over the years have done remarkable things. The book of mormon is a fraud because it is claimed to have been produced by a magic rock placed in a hat.
Until you can claim magic seer stones actually can do what Joseph claimed then it does not matter what else follows that you “Believe” in Mormonism.
Start at the beginning and provide evidence that Joe’s rock in his hat was anything more then a rock.
Elder Holland’s Testimony: The Book of Mormon is …: http://youtu.be/2_M8asSSGvw
Just curious what you think Joseph Smiths (and his entire family and others) motivations for committing fraud were? Because all he ever got for persecution and eventually death. Also everyone points to Joseph Smith as a fraud, but to accuse him is to also accuse a host of people that were involved with the founding of the church and who saw the plates. I know you will just say they are all frauds or they were just somehow brainwashed by Joseph. I realize this doesn’t offer the “proof” you are looking for, I just wonder where you have grounds for charging these people with fraud?
For the Book of Mormon to be true and the Word of God, it would bot contain so many untruths about science, history and archaeology.
However to answer your 11 questions:-
Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
He was not uneducated, in his twenties and had the help of Oliver Cowdrey ( a school teacher) and Sidney Rigdon (a theologian). Your argument suggests the Koran is true because that was from an uneducated man named Mohammed.
Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?
Chiasmus is in many books of fiction, it is very common.
How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.
Untrue, where did you get that idea from, a Mormon apologist such as Nibley or Sorenson? Also, have you ever heard of a library, JS had access to one at least.
How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature? Copied from bible, surrounding towns and made up. How come he could not come up with one real person for whom we have historical records?
If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.
He could have written it. He was a vivid story teller and very familiar with the bible (even repeated biblical translation errors in the BoM). Also, he probably was helped by Cowdret and Rigdon as well as access to other fictions such as ‘View of the Hebrews’.
Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?
Anyone else who would accept nonsense based on emotion rather than fact.
Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?
No such books that I know of except those written by Mormons. American History professors know of no such visit. The book you cite was written by a non academic based on legends and myths. No serious scholar accepts this work except Mormons trying to give credence to the fiction called the BoM.
If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?
You are quoting nonsense to justify nonsense. See what real biblical scholars say about the stick of Joseph.
How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.
How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.
See mormonthink.com for an answer to this and your other questions.
And the most important question to ask yourself is “How do I feel while I read the Book of Mormon?”
Not as good as I feel when I read ‘A Tale of Two Cities’ by Charles Dickens, ‘The Happy Prince’ by Oscar Wilde or ‘Les Miserables’ by Victot Hugo. They stir me to do good, and they are works of fiction.
As stated above all your questions and more can be answered at mormonthink.com
The key to studying any historical topic within the church or without is to be objective (not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts) and not subjective (based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions). As a person of faith this is precarious situation to be in terms of believing anything religious and is a balance that will never be fully reached by any person.
Tom.here are some thoughts to address a few of your concerns. Lets say that Joseph Smith was educated beyond a third grade level what would the quality of that education be in the 1820’s? Not that great compared to today’s standards. We are talking about reading, writing and and basic math skills. This education would not have been enough to create the book Mormon story.
The meat of the question is did Joseph Smith create the book of Mormon possibly with the help of others and if so is it a 19th century creation? The subjective debate that i have read for this is quite opinionated. The objective side of the debate i feel is really interesting.
If we have a writing from Author A and a writing from Author B and a unknown writing from author C we can use a method called stylometry to discover authorship. Which is a statistical analysis of the non-contextual words used by an author really the glue word of a sentence, (of,the,than,was). Using this method we can see a type of finger print made an author.
This method has been used on other historical documents and has been extremely beneficial in our understanding of these documents. Such as the 12 unknown writers of the federalist papers, Homers odyssey they actually discovered 3 different authors, William Shakespeare plays were actually written by him. Just to name few.
To my knowledge there have been five published stylometric studies done on the BOM. The first one being published in the early 80’s and the most recent being published in 2012. To be to the point these studies found that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and Solomon Spaulding DID NOT WRITE the BOM. Futhermore, they found that the writing style did no match with other writing styles of the 19th century. They also found that there are many authors found in the BOM with each one not matching each other.
These studies are important because they are as objective as a study can get, numbers do not lie. When discussing the BOM we are typically overcome with emotion on both sides of the argument whether it is someone testifying of its truthfulness or falsehood. As i write this i know that it will be dismissed by those that feel the church is a fraud because that is the only conclusion that they will let themselves come to for what ever personal reason is causing that conclusion. You can read the most recent study at this url. http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/periodical/jbms-volume-21-issue-number-1/
We can debate all day about facts or evidences to prove or disprove the validity of the Book of Mormon but what we are all forgetting is faith. “We walk by faith, not by sight”. You either believe or you don’t. We have only ever invited anyone and everyone to apply the admonition of paul, that is “ask of God… nothing waivering” or that you have faith in God who is a perfect being who cannot lie, if the book is true. I promise that he won’t lie, but there goes that word “faith” again. That is what I believe and what I have faith in. If we are all God’s children, why would he tell me the book is true and tell someone else it isn’t…. he wouldn’t. Any normal father would not do that to his children. He would not teach contradicting principles within his home. Looking for facts will drive one crazy because you will never find them all and without them all it leaves reasonable doubt that your facts and theories are false. I choose the easy rout by having faith in a loving heavenly father who I believe will guide me to all that is light and true.
Oh. My. God. Can’t believe it used to spout this nonsense. Can we debate the existence of leprechauns on the next post?
Kyle, many of us did. Have some compassion, you don’t have to be rude. I taught Sunday School only a year ago. As you know, many of us believed as we did because we were taught it growing up. I hope you are more compassionate about this to your family members (equally I hope they are compassionate back). I find this way of talking a way to lose friends fast.
I invite you to read this book with an open heart and hear the point of view from the missionaries. If you do so objectively and with an open heart you will come to know with millions of others that it is true. Because you don’t understand it and you don’t it agree with it you call it nonsense. Seek understanding, and then seek to be understood. It will change your life.
Kyle: If leprechauns don’t exist, then how do we get Lucky Charms? And how would a cereal maker know that they wear green and slide on rainbows to a pot of crunchy marshmallows. If leprechauns don’t exist, then neither do marshmallows.
I know the Book of Mormon is true and I know the church of Jesus Christ is the true church of Christ even though my mom condemns the church just by what she read online.
Your church and obviously yourself is online… You should apologize to your mother.
Your Mom likely knows how to check her sources.
Danielle… If you know its true, how come you parrot the exact language everyone else uses to bear testimony? That’s not truth, that’s programming.
Tyler,
Take your garbage elsewhere…..You are clueless.
Love the insight Greg.
Tyler just continues to fulfill the prophecy Angel Moroni said about Joseph Smith that is name shall be known for good and evil among all nations. Tyler’s link is evil and wrong.
What is evil about the Johnson’s presentation?
Why is this a prophecy – there isn’t one person on this planet that I couldn’t say this about. “Some people will like you, some people won’t”. Wow, it’s just like he said, he has some friends and some not so friends! Joseph Smith is loaded with “prophetic” crap like this. “Sometimes I am speaking as a Prophet and sometimes I am speaking as a man” – translation…sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong.
I’m gonna go get some popcorn for this one.
haha!
The other day I was talking to someone about this, and was asked how can I say, “I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true?” He said to me that no one can KNOW. I thought about this and remembered a testimony that a friend of mine shared. She said that she has every confidence that the church is true and that the Book of Mormon is true. I shared this with the person I was talking to. I agree that we cannot really have a pure knowledge of it, it is more like having confidence in it. It’s like me trusting my mom. I can’t say that I KNOW she loves me because I don’t KNOW, but she does tell me and her actions give me the confidence that she does love me; so I say, “I know my mom loves me.”
Terry, you deserve credit for admitting you can’t have a pure knowledge of LDS claims.
Here’s the tough part to understand. Love is an abstraction. It doesn’t exist outside our own minds. You define yourself what “love” is and if your mother is doing the behaviors that demonstrate “love” towards you, then you have as perfect knowledge possible that your mother loves you.
Unlike “love”, many LDS claims are not abstractions. They are defined and testable by real world tests. When actually tested, they fail.
Best of luck.
Historically accurate? Historians outside of Mormonism ALL say that the book is historically INaccurate. It didn’t really happen, buddy. Also, read the actual accounts of the witnesses. They didn’t actually see the plates. They had a “vision” of the plates. And the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible left and right. Have you READ the Bible?
Stop trying to prove the Book of Mormon. You will fail every time.
Have you read the Book of Mormon?
I have! And that’s why I left the church. Thank you Seminary.
I have. At least 15 times. I served a mission and was a member for 40+ years. That has nothing to do with the fact that this blog post is missing so many of the facts. Greg should probably stick to writing about something he actually knows about. Instead of trying to prove the church is true. If you believe it to be true, then great. However, there is a lot of evidence that stacks up against it and Greg has proven to be ignorant about why people actually leave the church.
So tell me, Josh, what do YOU know about the history of the church.
Please, share the scriptures that contradict the Bible. Thanks.
there is one account of the witness seeing the plates with there spiritual eyes. There are also accounts of them seeing them and touching them. It is almost a matter of what of what source you want to believe.
It depends on which historian you are taking to. There are many that say otherwise.
Thanks, Tyler for the video. Just goes to show that we have modern day Sadducees and Pharisees. Just wondering what you will do when the real FIRST letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9) shows up. Or the writings of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34). Perhaps the book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18). Just to mention a few.
I would add that I am grateful for posts such as yours. They show me that the Lord’s latter-day church is looked at no differently than the church He established when He walked the earth.
Thank you for this.
Just so you are aware, he doesn’t cite a single source. All 10 of his claims are completely bunk.
I invite you to read this book with an open heart and hear the point of view from the missionaries. If you do so objectively and with an open heart you will come to know with millions of others that it is true. Because you don’t understand it and you don’t it agree with it you call it nonsense. Seek understanding, and then seek to be understood. It will change your life.
Christopher Paolini wrote Eragon as a teenager… What about horses, cows, sheep
goats, even elephants in the Pre-Columbian New World? Could someone please give me one geographical site in the New World that any archeologist agrees that it gives
credence to the Book of Mormon? And To stay brief, I have found where the Book of Mormon contradicts the D&C many times on critical points: forgiveness of murder, polygamy, pre-existence of man, God’s word can change, Heaven and Hell. There, I’m done. Thank you for reading this, God bless you.
Please quote the scriptures. Thanks
You know, Mormons also read the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Perhaps you might be better served by finding out why they don’t find any contradictions?
As a former believer and someone who has read the BofM dozens of times, the question you pose is one of the most fun to think about. If the book is a fraud, how did he do it? To me, here’s the most logical answer:
In terms of content, Joseph Smith, as most authors of fiction do, gathered and mixed ideas from things familiar to him. View of the Hebrews served as a general outline for the BofM (See comments from B.H. Roberts)… Joseph was probably also inspired by the language and many elements in The Late War, First Book of Napoleon, Captain Kidd, the Koran, and obviously the Bible… See work by Chris Johnson… the parallels are astounding. The Late War also contains hebraisms and Chiasmus, but it was clearly written in the 19th century and doesn’t pretend to be an ancient document.
He used his own family structure as inspiration for the creation of Lehi’s family (and probably saw himself as Nephi). The story of the Tree of Life was taken from a dream experienced by Joseph Smith Sr (see biography by Lucy Mack).
Many people in Joseph’s time theorized about the presence of huge burial mounds and structures, and thought the indians they saw around them were incapable of building such things, so they must have been built by a superior race (white people of course) who must have eventually been wiped out by the dark skin indians… and that maybe these people came from the Middle East. Joseph Smith took this racist (and now embarrassing) idea and ran with it.
The BofM also contains most of Joseph’s early beliefs (from the late 1820’s) which were a generic flavor of Christian with no real unique “Mormon doctrine” (as opposed to the weird new stuff he invented in Nauvoo). No baptisms for the dead, no explicit mention of the two kinds priesthoods, no temple ordinances other than the ones performed under the Law of Moses, no endowment, no eternal marriage, no 3 degrees of glory (stolen from Swedenborg). Joseph later changed many of the Trinitarian references to sound more Godhead-ish.
Joseph, through the voice of BofM prophets, spoke crystal clear about events in his recent past like Columbus, the founding of America, but gets a little foggy as soon as he starts talking about the future. Joseph couldn’t resist mentioning his own name, making the fraud even more obvious. Many of the prophets in the BofM give sermons that sound just like the Protestant camp meetings Joseph used to attend as a teen… see King Benjamin (who died and accidentally came back to life in the 1st edition… so much for no contradictions).
No physical locations in the Americas have been identified. Most of the animals mentioned didn’t exist. Most crops mentioned didn’t exist. Most metals didn’t exist. No wheels. And on and on and on.
The BofM witnesses believed in seeing with “spiritual eyes” (aka imagination). Not a physical event. What the witnesses said about the event later in life is extremely troubling from a believers perspective… especially Martin Harris (dude was bizarre). Many witnesses jumped around from church to church and experienced all kinds of “miraculous” events and never denied any of it.
He was certainly smart enough (see what his language teachers said about him), creative enough, and a good enough storyteller to dictate it as his treasure digging pals would attest.
Joseph wrote it. Not God. Not Satan… using stuff from Joseph’s own backyard.
His motivation: A first, pay the family debts. But power, women and wealth (in that order) later compelled him most…
Yeah, but other than THOSE things, how else can you explain it other than being translated from ancient plates by the power of god? 😉
Greg,
I would love to see a response on this. You asked for specific answers, here they are. You have also stated that something needs to make logical sense to you. Well the answers provided by Nick seem to make a very logical argument against the BoM.
I am curious on your thoughts.
Thanks and God bless!
The exact same defenses have been made for the Qu’ran. How could young Mohammed write such a complex book? How could he produce such beautiful language? How do you explain verses in the Bible that clearly point to the coming of the prophet Mohammed? Most importantly, how do you feel while reading the Qu’ran? 1.5 billion people have considered these questions and concluded that Islam is the only answer. And yet virtually no Mormon has cracked the spine of a Qu’ran, let alone let these questions penetrate their soul.
Questions favorable to the Book of Mormon only interest people who have already concluded it is true. The Book of Mormon has plenty of historical, doctrinal, and internal contradictions, and if this list of 10 seems impressive, you are choosing to ignore them. Plenty of bold and unlikely books exist, and the Book of Mormon is hardly one of them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/29z22y/greg_trimbles_latest_blog_post_soyou_think_the/
Yes we are there making fun of your post. Come check out some of the comments.
Hey thanks for making fun of me! Nothin better than being made fun of!
You must have thick skin, Greg. I can hardly stand all the negative responses you get. I admire your strength.
Amen to that! You are great Greg.
I have a question for the commentors who are so up in arms about Greg’s faith and his thoughts about it. Do you in all fairness, go to every one of the worlds religion’s seek out random members blogs and attempt to debunk? Just sayin’ every religion can have stuff to try to debunk and have opposing commentary. Or do you just spend time reading mormons members blogs (which you already know you don’t believe in).
You realize that the EXACT reason he writes what he does is to get all of the negative comments right? It creates an explosion of web traffic because he gets both members and ex-members to read his blog. I would not be AT ALL surprised if Greg doesn’t actually believe in the Church. Honestly, I think it is hilarious that he is able to capitalize on affirming some crazy beliefs to members, while at the same time trolling non or ex members! Bravo.
Me either Greg…I don’t even know why I’m reading all these comments, they’re just making me angry. Thank you for posting this, and for standing for the buil crap of so many people
While making fun of you is unkind. You do the same. You strawman the reasons people leave. You never attempt to understand only point fingers and ignore the credible answers to your questions. You are working under motivated reasoning. I would imagine you have never walked too many miles out of your own shoes. Have you given the same merit to other religious texts? Which will you be defending with specious reasoning next?
I invite you to read this book with an open heart and hear the point of view from the missionaries. If you do so objectively and with an open heart you will come to know with millions of others that it is true. Because you don’t understand it and you don’t it agree with it you call it nonsense. Seek understanding, and then seek to be understood. It will change your life.
I honestly think that people specifically look for these posts to condemn them. I admire all opinions, but to reply strictly for the sake of argument is against everything that Christ taught. Is ‘love one another’ synonymous with ‘argue with everything you agree with?’
Love the post Greg, keep spreading the love of Christ:)
Skeptics are concerned with truth. As Carl Sagan says “Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.”
Hi Greg
Thank you for covering some very easy to understand topics related to our church. I think that we understand that negative people or disenchanted will always try to persuade us that the Church has great flaws; however there is no denying what we feel and discern by the spirit.
Thank you keep up the good work!
It’s got to be easy living when you declare your feelings infallible.
A true testimony of the truthfulness of the church is infallible only as long as you keep the commandments and covenants. Life, however, is never easy. Try not to confuse the two.
Wow, righteous too! It must be hard being so humble
Are you saying that in trying to be righteous and humble we are wrong in testifying in something so clearly true? How sad the world makes me when I realize that those declarations are more seen as an insult to human-kind than the medicine it is
Do what the church says and believe it and you too will know its true. I see how it works now
Feelings nothing more than feelings, I have a feeling that you are an idiot by your reasoning it must be true, besides anyone who believes the Mormon church is true is nuttier than Squirrel shit!
You’re the man Greg!!!!
There is a lot of proof out there supporting the Bible, yet a lot of people still don’t believe in it as the word of God. Just because there is physical proof of something, doesn’t mean there is spiritual proof.
Ultimately, I know the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are true because God told me so. That’s the end of the story for me. I’ve had more than one spiritual experience confirming to me the truth of this faith and book. It’s the same with the Bible. No amount or lack of proof in either book can change my mind, because God has spoken. I take confirmation from God to be of more importance than any other source.
So God talked to you? Or you had spiritual experiences. There is a difference you know. Just wanting to clarify, because if God told you as you said (or has talked to you) that’s a pretty big deal. Very few have spoken directly with God, even the current GA’s won’t make this claim.
Hey people, have about some intelligent constructive dialogue? If you disagree,
explain why. Some of you sound like you’re still in Junior High school, or worse just
arrogant jerks.
There are very lengthy posts here full of content.
Its obvious who the arrogant jerk is —> you!
Agreed. Respectful dialogue is best when showing that something is false.
Thank you Greg. Fun to use in Sunday discussion with my pre-mission aged boys. Even interesting to see all the vitriolic comments-good practice for my children to understand those who leave the church but who can not leave it alone. I appreciate your courage and ideas. Carry on.
Most of the contrary comments have been respectful. Does disagreeing with Greg mean my posts are vitriolic too?
I will leave the church when it leaves me alone. Despite my leaving I still get calls from HT,Missionaries,church members etc not to mention the 80k useful idiot’s out there trying to sell a phony product and trying to get people to give up their beliefs to join a cult.
These former members – they leave the church but they can’t leave it alone. Hmmmm.
We will not leave it alone because the Church has a vice grip on the legislature of the state of Utah, and essentially legislates non-members to comply with its own views. When the Church leaves the rest of us alone, we will leave the Church alone.
Feel free to move. They were there before you were.
No you won’t. People like you are incapable of NOT scratching that itch…even if it itched no more, you would keep scratching. That much is clearly evident by commets people have made in their ill-willed attempts to offer correction to Greg and believers instead of withholding criticism and allowing Greg to testify on his own blog. Revolting is what that behavior is!
Millions of people leave the church and they leave it alone. You just never hear from them because they have moved onto better things and Mormonism becomes smaller and smaller in their rearview mirror.
I guess I would be one of the “they can’t leave it alone”. Active LDS really like to throw around the “they can leave the church but they can’t leave it alone.” to make themselves feel better that this is truly the true church because look at how hard Satan is attacking it.
You have to understand that the people writing what you consider negative comments are the people that took Mormonism seriously. These are the people that have read the Book of Mormon 30+ times, served a mission, married in the temple, gave 10% of their income to the church for decades, and the list goes on. These are the people that sacrificed a great deal to be a part of this church because at one time they “knew” the church was true just as you “know” the church is true today.
Suppose that you were married to somebody for decades and built an entire life on what you thought was reality. One day you noticed things happening that don’t quite add up. There may have been things that gave you concern before but for the first time you ask yourself “what if this whole life and marriage is made up?”. It almost sounds like something from the Truman Show.
No normal person could just say “Wow! I just spent the past 30+ years of my life believing in something I found out it is not true. Oh well! Even though I have family members and friends that are a part of it, I am never going to mention it and just be on my happy way to see what the next 30 years bring! La la la!”
I seriously doubt that one day if you found your spouse to not be somebody who you thought and lived a life of lies that you could just say “Sure you can keep the children and I wish you the best. Bye!” and never talk to them again. You built your entire life with that person and invested so much into the relationship.
Just put the church being true or not to the side. Just think about the person and how much pain and hurt they have just gone through. Their entire world has just been rocked. It is normal for people of ANY religion to “not leave it alone” when it was the one thing they lived for, fought for, and would have even died for.
And church members won’t leave non-members alone. Constantly trying to convert them. It flows both ways. Members try and use your line all the time. Bottom line, when members stop constantly trying to spread their theology onto others, then others will stop pushing back. Your argument is silly and has no merit.
Neither can scientologists who leave, that must be true too. People are still upset about Bernie Madoff, he must actually be a good guy.
The likelihood of one individual being right increases in direct proportion to the intensity with which others are trying to prove him wrong.
You must have pretty high respect for the guy who still thinks the world is flat, huh? He’s catching a lot of flak these days…
I’m teaching a logical fallacy class this summer to teenagers. I am bookmarking this, because its gold.
Jay, did you read those first posts? They were well written an informative. Please proof read your own post before trying to call others ‘junior highschoolers”.
All those that think those of us that don’t believe are deceived and following the wrong path, please do your research. In fact, you don’t need to read anything except what the church provides to find many of these issues.
I encourage you to find the original BOM texts and run the comparisons. Study the book of Abraham, study the 3 new volumes of the Joseph smith papers. Learn about how Joseph translated these plates on lds.org’s new essays. Your mind and eyes will be opened.
Being honest with myself and following the spirit led me on the path of discovering truth and happiness. It’s worth a closer look for everyone that still just accepts everything they’ve been told is true.
According to your following of the Spirit, what is tha path that leads to truth and happiness? Thanks.
The original Book of Mormon text is at your nearest Deseret Book, approved by the church and distributed to all its members. Seems pretty confident for a church to put out supposed errors that could lead to its destruction. Of course maybe you didn’t consider that there are scholars who are LDS that might actually be smarter than your limited amount of researching capability.
Try this exercise: Sit down with a friend and have that friend read an extremely large book to you(around the size of the Book of Mormon of course) and then have yourself write down everything that you hear. I dare you to do that and make not a single mistake.
Then when you have that script, deliver it to someone who has the knowledge of 19th century printing(which was very limited) and have them set your hundreds of pages of handwriting into printed text.
After you’ve finished this task, let me know how many thousands of errors you come up with. Then we can talk.
The difference is…Smith claimed to have gotten the text of the BoM from GOD HIMSELF.
If WE were to do as you suggested in your ” exercise”, OBVIOUSLY we would make mistakes. But then, WE would never claim to have done the work with God’s personal oversight, which if true, would preclude mistakes.
The God I worship would have no part in the murder of Laban (for ex), and do so with the stupendously LAME excuse, “Better than one man perish than a whole nation dwindle…”!! (INE 4:13)
Meaning that if one disagrees with Obama and believes his policies are destroying America, that it’s okay with God to OFF the bugger.
If this is the God you worship, you’re welcome to him.
What a great legacy for your children!
I agree with Travis. And what about the God of Abraham? I am sure you know the reference already. Ya know, the story where Abraham asks God numerous times to save a certain city because he felt God would be destroying the righteous amongst the wicked? Well, we all know how that story ended…. I guess the God you worship (unless you aren’t Christian, then the God you worship very well may be in line with your claim and my assumption would be deemed a faulty assumption) is into this sort of thing – the Laban-type killing.
Well the Book of Mormon reads like it was written by an uneducated farm boy. It is horrid writing. It reads like poorly-written Bible fan-fiction.
one the the many witnesses of its truthfulness! If Joseph Smith was such a genius, he would have never made such awful grammatical mistakes. The book is not an English book. It’s Semitic! Joseph Smith had no idea what he was doing. “Dreamed a dream”, “and it came to pass”…he would have never used this language.
So… Wait.. The fact that it’s written poorly is faith affirming to you? See, here’s the problem. The “truth” of the BoM doesn’t have a possibility of a negative result- meaning- you’ve set up a system that will always appear true based on your preconceived notions. Just read and pray about it, God will tell you, right? Unless he doesn’t, which means that you didn’t have enough faith, or you were confused or you need try harder… And on and on. If it was written fantastically, you’d be spouting that as faith affirming, but since it’s not, that’s equally faith affirming!! The church is soooo true!
It’s just my belief bro. 🙂 I’m not saying it has to be yours. I’m just grateful for the experiences I’ve had.
Have you read about bias in depth Greg? Your comments show cognitive inertia.
Cognitive inertia refers the tendency for beliefs or sets of beliefs to endure once formed. In particular, cognitive inertia describes the human inclination to rely on familiar assumptions and exhibit a reluctance and/or inability to revise those assumptions, even when the evidence supporting them no longer exists or when other evidence would question their accuracy.
I personally am TOTALLY open to evidence that the Book of Mormon is true, good evidence that is.
You on the other hand dismiss all evidence to the contrary no matter how good that evidence is.
I agree bro, everyone’s free to believe. But.. It is funny to me that you would post something that basically mocks critics of your beliefs, and then feel persecuted when someone refutes your claims?
.. Dat persecution complex..
To clarify, Joseph Smith didn’t make any grammatical mistakes. He dictated the script to Oliver Cowdery who wrote it by hand. The printer then proceeded to set the type and fix errors. This interaction can be denied by no one. The mistakes were made by the mishearing of Oliver Cowdery and the printer not being able to read the handwriting of Cowdery. Common with all texts and printing of the time.
What Kyle here is suggesting is that Smith came up with the 700 pages of script on his own. 700 pages proven to be written by several different authors with advanced computer technology and professional writing analysts. That fact there would just prove how uneducated you are.
To take it further though, the actual handwriting and form of writing of Joseph Smith at that age is documented in the first edition of the Book of Mormon. He obviously prided himself on doing a good job since it would be of such great value, but unfortunately the writing falls short of any style of writing found in the text of the Book of Mormon itself.
Anyone who knows anything about English would know that the Book of Mormon is in fact very well written to conform to ancient times and also extremely creative for any storyteller. It includes all the elements of good storytelling. Saying the text is uneducated is indeed a very uneducated claim.
Your blogs are great. Keep it up!
Greg,
Just wanted to clear a few things up. In John 10:16 The other sheep…not of this flock refers to Gentiles who would believe. His coming death would bring them also to the Father. They too will listen to My voice. Jesus continues to save people as they hear His voice in the Scriptures. Acts 18: 9-11 illustrates how this works out in the history of the church. “I have many people in this city, the Lord told Paul. One flock and one Shepherd speaks of the church with believers from Jewish and Gentile “sheep pens” in one body with Christ as Head. Greg, I was raised Mormon and wanted to believe it but the truth is it falls short of the true blessing of Jesus Christ and Grace. I love the Mormon people and my only reason for responding is out of love. Jesus said, ” I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (Jn. 14:6), For the law was given through Moses; grace and TRUTH came through JESUS CHRIST. No one has EVER seen GOD, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. (Jn 1:17-18) Jesus is the only Melchizedek priest needed. Keep asking questions Greg it is what lead me to the truth. “Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” ( Jn. 8: 32). I pray you and many who follow you will find the truth, it will set you free. Jesus is so much greater than you can imagine. He loves us. He wants us all and no amount of performance will change that. (Please take the time to look up Isa. 64:6; Rom. 3:20-4:25) Jesus is the answer nothing more. No Joseph Smith needed. Praying for you and the many others I care about that are still stuck in a dry and thirsty land.
What about John the Baptist?
The other sheep were Not the Gentiles because the Gentiles could not hear His voice. His sheep hear His voice. The Gentiles at that time were not His sheep.
I find it a little strange when people say they want LDS to see the truth and pray for them to see the light etc. I would like to know what LDS do or say that would keep them out of heaven In ways of there belief. Every thing that the LDS doctrine says is for doing good and helping others and to be Christ like. How could that keep you from being a good Christian? They teach that Christ IS The head. Jennifer’s quote:”He loves us. He wants us all and no amount of performance will change that”. Does it hurt us when we do good things like he told us to do? It seem that if LDS people went just by your doctrine , they would be “saved” also. Keep asking questions, There is more truth out there.
Well said!
A true Christion knows the Bible a Mormon only knows what he has been spoon fed.Remember there is a Jo Smith Bible but the Mormons prefer to use the KJ version………I often wonder why that is.
You didn’t really clear anything up. You simply have a different approach and perspective to scripture. If you look at any other religion, you will find that each one has a different approach and perspective as you do.
They all, like you, believe Jesus is the way yet they all see salvation through different eyes. I believe that Christ has one perspective and one way for everyone. I believe he organized a church with covenants and promises. I don’t think Christ would want us to go our own ways worshiping him however we want to based on our interpretation of the Bible. For that reason he brought forth a prophet to show us which way is the way he intended.
Without that guide, people are simply left up to wander and believe how they wish with absolutely no order.
I understand some people need proof or evidence to believe in the Book of Mormon and that is fine. However, I too remember the feelings that reading it stirred in my soul. And no matter what I can never deny those. When my Heavenly Father confirms something for me or answers a prayer, I don’t question, I just don’t need to. I am grateful for the knowledge that He is aware of me, and my faith is strengthen.
A lobster in a pot of water at first feels refreshed, then nice and toasty warm…but in the end he ends up cooked. Feelings do not equal truth. Isn’t it worth the FACTUAL investigation of Mormonism with eternity at stake?
And you know this how……….oops Sorry feelings,you do know that feelings are not an accurate indicator of truth.
Greg, I admire your strength and courage. You will be blessed for your courage to testify that the words of the Book of Mormon are true and that it is another testament of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, there will always be “mobs” to try to shake your faith. Keep up the good work.
Because God really cares about your sacred undies as a verification of the truthful of the book of Mormon.Why is it that the BOM is not another testament of the Jesus Christ in Joe Smiths Bible?
I’m sorry Greg, but these points haven’t been considered good evidences for the Book of Mormon since church historian Brigham H. Roberts family published his “Studies of the Book of Mormon” in the 80s.
Before that one could at least understand the poor attempt at apologetics, but there’s really no excuse for it now that the information is readily available.
In logic, as time goes by, any evidence at all starts to fade.
Anti-mormons still bring up kinderhook plates and Solomon Spalding. They wouldn’t even be considered attacks anymore since they were discovered as lies. Yet people still use them like brainless fools.
Obviously some people put all their trust in the internet these days. Information that is supposedly so readily available, not really tangible though.
Praying for you Greg. Hope you find the simpleness of God’s plan. Love Him and your neighbor. Looks like the human race has plenty to work on until He returns for us. Proud to have been LDS, prouder to be free in Christ. All those covenants and oaths you swear by are empty ideas of man, not God.. P.S. Yes, I’ve read and prayed about the BofM many times. It was a very difficult decision to leave the church but I could no longer deny the holy spirit….that promised gift from a loving saviour who said He would never leave us abandoned. No mention of a coming prophet who would need to set things right for god. Just the gift of the Holy Spirit until He comes again. Love ya Brother.
Thanks sister Bee! Thanks for being respectful on here! I need the prayers 🙂
Greg, I love your words. They strengthen me. I am a very recent convert. My dad is a Baptist pastor and is against my conversion. But I cannot deny what the Lord has revealed to me. I fought with the missionaries for months before I decided to just let go abd let God lead me. Once you become humble like a child, understanding you don’t know all there is to know and once you let the spirit of truth take over He really shows you line upon line. I have battles with my father constantly on doctrine but my faith is made even stronger. Don’t let these people tear you down. This faith is true, it makes sense and fills in all the holes and gaps from what I used to believe. The Saints will continue to be persecuted in one way or another we just need to stand strong and firm in our testimonies. Thank you again for your words!
Hello Greg. You wrote “Here is the bottom line. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet.”
Well that really is not the bottom line. 🙂 On my mission I became fascinated with Church History and learning about the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I was able to retain a reprinted copy of David Whitmer’s “An Address to All Believers in Christ” that I found very fascinating. David Whitmer does give his testimony about the Book of Mormon and that it is a true book and this pamphlet has even been quoted in LDS Sunday School manuals. The one thing they don’t mention is David Whitmer makes it very clear that Joseph Smith was only to bring forth the Book of Mormon and not to start a church or become a prophet.
David Whitmer cites the Book of Commandments which later became the Doctrine and Covenants. When the Book of Commandments was first printed the revelation from the Lord read “And he [Joseph Smith, Jr.] has a gift to translate the book [of Mormon], and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.”
It was later changed when it became the D&C when Joseph Smith started to establish the Church and became a prophet to “And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.” – Joseph Smith modified a revelation of the Lord that was already given to him and printed to now say that he would not be given another gift until it [the Book of Mormon] was finished.
I no longer believe that the Book of Mormon is a literal history of real people, but many people have and do believe that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is not a prophet including David Whitmer.
The point that convinced me that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet was money. Why would anyone start a church that was a fraud and not do it to make money? The Church still does not have paid ministry. If I was going to fake a religion, I would want to “get” some earthly gain from it. I’m sorry for the people that don’t believe or that stop believing. Satan is very happy you don’t believe.
Joseph Smith lived like a king relative to the actual work he did. The current LDS leaders also live in amazing luxury including multiple homes and splendid feasts on a daily basis. They also get adored wherever they travel and Joseph was clearly motivated by sex and power. So you’re wrong.
How many times was he imprisoned? How many months of his life was spent under related circumstances? Kingly huh? How old was he when he was shot, gruesomely, multiple times? I don’t know why anyone would aspire to be LDS church leadership. Just from hearing about their lives and observing the way they get treated I ask myself, what madman would want that for themselves? There are far easier paths in this life than true discipleship….
You are so dumb! Any LDS church leader that is successful, attributes their success to what they have done in their careers, without an ounce of help from the church. Bear in mind, every materialistic thing they own, is paid for after 10% of their earnings goes to their dedication and their beliefs in tithing.
You sound very Christlike right now. The verse, “you will know then by their fruits” comes to mind. If your against the LDS faith why waist your time on here?
Seriously?? That’s what convinced you??? Ohhh….you poor naive thing!! LOL!!!
Thanks for the testimony. The secrets of god are only revealed by god to those that seek it. What I love about the gospel is learning other peoples testimonies and findings and these things were taught to me by the spirit as we’ll not because someone told me them. Perception is reality.
Greg thanks for being brave and letting The Lord catch all the stones being thrown at you by all these “Christians “.
God bless you and keep being brave. All for the glory of god.
Perception is not reality. Reality is reality. The existence of god is not subject to your perpeptions. He does, or does not. Same goes for any religion
So how do you determine the reality of things beyond your field of vision?
I feel sorry for those that feel the need to mock and judge. Your words only fulfill the prophecies. Keep pointing and laughing…your time will come when you meet the Savior face to face to be judged for your works against him. Thank you Greg for your words.
I disagree with the assertion that “If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the Mormon church is Jesus’ true church on the earth” — or the close assertion that was made in the text.
Any one of those statements could be true independently of the others. For example, maybe the Book of Mormon is “true” in the sense that it represents a factual history of the Americas. However, maybe the part about JS being a prophet is false. Maybe he found the gold plates, studied them for a while, and then translated the text and decided to make the rest of the story up. I don’t think that this is what actually happened (I think the whole thing from start to finish is made up), but it’s one logically consistent possibility.
Also, even if JS was a prophet and the BoM is “true”, it could be that the modern Mormon church is “false”. For example, maybe the modern Mormon church is a break off and the Community of Christ is God’s authorized successor to the original church founded by JS.
So, even if the BoM is true in the sense that Mormons claim it is, it doesn’t mean much for the truth claims of the modern Mormon church.
Josh thanks for posting!
Elder Holland’s Testimony: The Book of Mormon is …: http://youtu.be/2_M8asSSGvw
Greg,
Thanks for your inspiring testimony. It’s unfortunate that so many people, including some of those that have commented on this post, have hardened their hearts to many of the plain and simple truths that the BoM shares. Including the very logical ones that you have mentioned in your post.
I am going to share your link my friend. Thank you for your great missionary work. I too want to share my testimony with those who might read it here that I know that the Book of Mormon is true. I have read it several times. I have investigated its truthfulness emotionally, spiritually, and logically. And I have received the confirmation of the Holy Ghost that it is true.
Read the Book. Take a chance. Besides, what would you have to lose?
Great words!
Normally I don’t leave comments…however, all of the previous negative comments inspired me. Thank you for taking the time to write down your thoughts on the Book of Mormon and for sharing your testimony. Your strength inspires and builds me. I too, have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I don’t believe in the book because of the amazing history that it possesses. In fact when I am reading the Book of Mormon, I never even think about Joseph Smith’s education or age. All I know is that when I read the Book of Mormon, I am filled with a peace, and no other book that I have read inspires me more. I am constantly being challenged to live a more Christ centered life because of this book. So, despite all of the attacks on the Book of Mormon, I will continue to believe because that book has touched my soul in a way that an argument never can.
Thanks again,
Shauna
Love this post. Exactly what I was feeling as well and the only reason I replied to the post at all. I Literally never reply to these… Until today… showing my support.
Shauna, it’s one thing to lead your life based on good principles you learn from a book, and another to therefore extend those feelings to being sources of absolute knowledge about observable realities, such as geology and archeology. The BoM is not merely a spiritual account, it makes quantifiable testable claims about science, history, genealogy, biology in humans (skin changing color for example), it makes claims that tens of animals and plants existed in a place that they never did before early European explorers brought them, it makes claims about language, DNA, technological advancements… There is a better way to test these things than feelings.
You can make any belief sound crazy or moronic just by the tone and delivery that you use. The Bible claims that many impossible things happened…(bringing a dead man back to life). Even people who claim to only believe in science have a way of explaining how life was created in a way that sounds like science fiction. It is my observation that any way we choose to look at our existence takes a bit of faith and a bit of acceptance that nothing can be known for sure. Because of all of the uncertainty that exists in this life, I choose to ponder with my own observations, look at the facts that I do know, and listen to what my spirit is telling me. Through this method, I have found more peace than in any other way that I have tried.
Shauna, thank you so much for your comments, especially the most recent. You have put my feelings into words that I could not have said better. Thank you again.
That was beautiful, Shauna, thank you!
Thanks Shauna.. Perfectly stated.. In my early twenties I read the BOM, prayed, and was hit hard with an overwhelming manifestation of love and confirmation. I knew the BOM was authentic.. I gave up a partying lifestyle and served a mission… I’ve been blessed ever since..
I can hear the nay-sayers, ya ya.. feelings… brainwashing.., big deal.. Well it was a big deal to me… I’ll never deny the physiological transformation.. It’s very personal to me. My spirituality trumps the “anti” spewing…. One could wonder… Did Jesus walk on water, hmm.. He raised a dead man…. Moses parted thousands of gallons of water to walk through the Dead Sea’s floor.. Do we have evidence?..
Thanks for the good read Greg.. Keep it up please.. By the way… you forgot to throw in the fact that buried in a small verse of the BOM is an Isaiah reference found only in the Greek Septuagent.. I’m sure JS had copies of those laying around the farm.. Or made trips miles away to find a Sepetugint in a library somewhere to fulfill one small verse. Oh wait.. He had Oliver and Sidney there to council his literary needs….
Let’s all make an effort to keep the “wifi” coming.. How do these nay-sayers find your blog anyway? I think you’re creating a “dust cloud”.. Nothing wrong with that..
When i read the bible i see things like Moses’ staff being turned into a serpent, why is it such a stretch to believe that god changed the color of the Lamanite’s skin? He put a similar mark on Cain.
But alas no historical book can be proved, you have to trust in something no matter what you read, the victors of any struggle are the ones who tell the story of what happened and the “other side of the story” goes untold.
I truly believe that the LDS church is the one true church of Christ restored to the benefit of all who seek eternal truths. However, i can not make you feel the same way, nor would i want to force you to believe the same things as me, that was Lucifer’s plan. I do hope though that you will take the time to prayerfully consider the truthfulness of this book and this church. Please know that as a religion we do not condemn thoughtful and prayerful search for the truth, we are all sons and daughters of God and we would like nothing more than to welcome you into our church and do the best we can to answer any questions and help you in this endeavor. All you need do is ask.
You said that perfectly! I too know the Book of Mormon ha true based on all those things you said! I can’t believe all of the negativity and bashing on someone’s testimony. And most are people who have once been active members. It seems satan is working hard on those that have wavering testimonies and it’s so sad. Definitely signs of the second coming!
Ya know, I often have wondered, at various times in my life, how the “servants of satan” work and what they actually do moment to moment. During some of these times I have pictured them wandering around pestering people for no reason and doing unwholesome things. Well, I read some comments here, and can you guess what I feel like I am seeing?! If Greg’s logic is so unpure, corrupt, misguided, deceptive, etc., why would an opponent care so much? Why not leave the imbecile(s) to themselves? I just cannot fathom Christ walking up to a Jew who has declared their personal feelings towards something and acting at all like these people. Thus, it is quite easy to decipher which master they serve. At this to the list of logic – watch who fights against what in this world, and therein, on one side, may you find the truth. Thanks for reaffirming where Christ’s gospel is found, flawed and dark as the history might be.
One could claim the same about the post you just wrote…so much hatred and judgement. It is unfortunate that religion brings out an ugly side of humanity…especially those that claim to be Christ-like.
The majority of posters on this forum are respectful and educated people.
Brody, many people in the Church leave feeling they have been deceived their whole lives. Many feel it is their right and their duty to speak out against what they feel is an injustice–the deceit of others among their family and friends. Have you seen the Matrix films? A perfect example. The protagonists spend the entire films attempting to release people from the false reality in which they are trapped, thinking they are living happily within reality. It’s not only because Neo is angry for having been deceived, but also because he knows that people are being deceived and manipulated by a false reality that he attempts to free them and fight against the oppressors. The fact is, many who have left the church feel they have awakened to reality and that others are still trapped by a manipulative and dangerous falsehood. The comments of church members vilifying and (in your argument) demonizing these individuals only fans the flames and their resentment. Perhaps a more empathetic approach would be a way of reaching these people and helping them understand your point of view.
I can understand your point of view. Matrix is an awesome movie too (don’t tell on me). But my problem with this whole thing is the approach, or tact if you will. I don’t mind people voicing their opinions. I have a problem with the way they go about it sometimes. If I am the only one who notices the difference in the tone, attitude, and approaches between a given individual, then I must be in my own world. I assumed it was apparent to all because I was able to judge the good from the bad. That’s all.
And people who “come to the church,” as opposed to leaving it, could be argued to have that same “awakening.” Double sided coin, if you ask me. I guess we will find out who was right someday?
Huge fan of your posts Greg. I can’t deny the truth either and it saddens me to see the negative comments of some… just surprises me that so many seem to seek out and aim to discredit anything they can. If you don’t agree, why continue to read and follow these posts? Must be trying to fill some sort of void where the church of Jesus Christ should be. Instead of seeking to discredit others, how about focusing on how you can make the world a better place. You don’t have to agree, but you also don’t need to attack those of us seeking to publish peace and trying to illicit good works. Instead, join the cause and help teach others to be Christlike… don’t even have to be Mormon to do that. You are inspiring Greg, keep up the good work! The book of Mormon is true! Joseph Smith was a prophet! Christ is my Savior and He lives!
It should be more interesting to me that there is so much contradiction about this post, but I’m not surprised.
Worship and belief are a God-given right. Each person is allowed to believe what they want. That was the whole ideology behind America.
When mankind turns away from higher thinking, when there hearts become bitter and all thought becomes self-centered, it is hard to know what is truth. We use maybe 10% of our brains capacity. Are we truly capable of knowing what truth is without some sort of divine intervention?
Pain is not something clearly seen, nor is hope or joy. Yet, we feel these emotions everyday. If it acceptable to cry, then why is it not acceptable to feel the spirit of God?
Revelation is given to each to make their own conclusion about the paths taken in their life. Religious or not, we are not alone. We are always watched over. You can turn your back up God, but he will never turn his back to you.
Greg believes in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. He has received a testimony of its truthfulness on his own personal level. His heart is open to messages of that book and the Bible, and the teachings and counsel of Latter-day prophets.
Does that mean we all must follow Christ and His church? No.
But I will say this. The only way to seek truthfulness of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon is to pray with an open mind, in humility and faith, and allow the personal revelation promised to all humans, every single one, to flow over you.
If you feel stupid or if it seems weird, your doing it right. The warmth of spirituality is an odd thing to feel after having a cold and hardened heart for so long.
Some will molest and hate, even try to destroy and rip at the heart of the Gospel, but even to them the invitation remains the same:
Come join us. For with God at your side, even the impossible can be done.
Like Greg, I am a witness to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. I have witnessed angels and I have communicated with God.
I know this is just a reply to a blog post, but my words I leave with you in the Spirit and the name of Jesus Christ.
Each person is allowed to believe what they want. That was the whole ideology behind America.
yes, and others can say its illogical.
You seem like a very nice man with strong faith. That is to be admired.
With that being said, if you are going to post about the truth of the Book of Mormon based on evidence and research, then it would be wise to produce actual academic evidence with sources and citations to back your claims. But, can you? That seems to be the debate of this post. Most people have been extremely respectful and have simply stated their own evidentiary claims…many with more solid research than your own.
It is amazing to have faith. I, too, have faith…in God and in Jesus. Not in a book. The Bible is there to guide us. We are called to live our faith. If you are truly interested in doing research and finding evidence, as you claim, I would encourage you to read the Old and the New Testament. For solid, research based information on Joseph Smith and the beginnings of the church please consider reading Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer.
“Not in a book. The Bible is there to guide us… I would encourage you to read the old and new Testament.”
So let’s get this straight. You have faith in a being that is only revealed and described in this generation through a book yet you have faith in the being rather than the book? A little contradictory don’t you think? In fact, you are suggesting the reading of one of the most flawed historical books ever translated. If you thought Smith, Cowdery, and the printer had a hard time getting the Book of Mormon out without mistakes… the Bible has passed through a lot more trial than that. Various translations and people seeking to destroy the written text by altering it. It’s amazing we even have the book.
All I can say is follow Greg’s advice and read the Book of Mormon. You’ll find the understanding of the Bible to be far more powerful with it as a tool. The two books compliment each other quite well.
Marshall –
I have read the OT and NT more than once. I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (which by the way… is an excellent book, very much enjoyed it. It contained a few doctrinal errors, and some misrepresentations. But I’m a huge Krakauer fan and enjoyed the book a lot. I don’t blame him for the errors, when you interview people, you get their bias. It would be impossible for him to interview enough people get a more clear picture without a personal bias).
I still very much believe the BoM to be the word of God. Translated by a prophet.
Now what would you like me to do??
(not that I’d do it… but I’m curious what your point is)
It appears Joseph Smith has a greater following than Jon Krakauer. The question might be, who is a more reliable source – Jon, or Joseph? You put a lot of faith in Jon and his little book. Does he have other works as a testament to his “research?”
Makes you wonder why so many people care? Why other religions teach anti-Mormonism classes? Could it be because The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is TRUE? Why else would there be so many haters out there? Satan must really be scared…
Because they love Mormons and want them to know the true gospel that gives freedom and salvation.
Why does society teach against child abuse? Why do people even care about child abuse? Could it be because child abuse is the only TRUE way to treat a child? Why else would there be so many haters out there?
No. It’s because child abuse is harmful. To the child, to the family, to society as a whole. And, I testify to you with every fiber of my being, so is the LDS church. I’ve been out for over 20 years and have still not recovered from the abuse and brainwashing I experienced as a child, teen, missionary, and young adult in the organization.
Christians like me reach out to the LDS community for the same reason the LDS community sends missionaries to my door, out of love. I know the LDS church is not true, and I know that Christ offers a better covenant than the one Joseph Smith founded. I want all LDS people to know the truth, love, hope, and peace the biblical gospel provides. As long as people trust their deceitful feelings over the promises of God, Satan will win them over. God bless.
I know the Book of Mormon is true. As a life long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and only being 18 years old, I have come to know of my limited knowledge and ignorance of this world. However, I do know this, I become a better person when I read the Book of Mormon. I have felt the Spirit testify to me of its truthfulness. That fire within my bosom is not something that comes often. When I truly humbled myself, and asked my dear Heavenly Father whether this book was the truth, I could not deny the testimony given to me from the Holy Ghost. I have NEVER felt anything more powerful or more piercing to the soul. To quote a dear friend of mine who is currently giving 2 years of life for this gospel he also knows is true: “If the Gospel isn’t true, nothing matters. If the Gospel IS true, nothing else matters”. I pray you may also humble yourself and truly ask to know.
Bless you Greg for having the courage to testify this truth.
Jess,
You can’t base “Knowledge” on good or bad feelings. Knowledge is based on verifiable, falsifiable, testable evidence.
It’s a misuse of the phrase “I Know” that is an underpinning of Mormonism. “I believe” is the honest phrase as beliefs can be based on feelings.
I was also born and raised in the LDS church, served a mission, married in the temple, all that stuff. I can tell you that your friend who is serving a mission is wrong about “If the Gospel isn’t true, nothing matters”. One can find out how many other things do really matter once one is able to leave the church’s grip.
Dr. Scott, palaeontologist that he is, also admits the presence of true elephants in North and South America, but fossil evidence does not necessarily prove their presence in historic times. But Scott tells of the finding in 1929 of the skeleton of a mastodont in Ecuador which had probably been killed by Indians; indeed, they had seemingly roasted the flesh, making fires within the body-cavity of the large animal. The site, with its painted pottery, stone implements, and the skeleton, was dated by Dr. Spillman of Quito as being near the time of Christ.
http://www.shields-research.org/Books/Sperry/AChap18.htm
I’ve done in-depth research into the Book of Mormon, focusing on its alleged Old Testament background. These were not superficial surveys. The BOM is real.
Nicely put, Greg. You could add (and probably have), a point of how far people will go to put down the Book of Mormon and demonize those that have a testimony of its truthfulness and the truthfulness of the church and Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.
While the negativity displayed by so many posters here is truly sad, it only goes to prove the notion that Satan will strive with all his power to destroy the Book of Mormon and the church. The fact that you see people here who claim to have served missions, been sealed in the temple, and still lost their testimony (interesting that they don’t say HOW), goes to show you that Satan succeeds in his endeavors.
And I know that feeling all too well. While I have never lost my testimony, I have had it beaten down to embers in the past, because of my own foolish actions. Thankfully, wisdom comes with age and today, at nearly half a century old, I can say without a doubt that I know the church is true and that the Book of Mormon is indeed the word of God, another testament of Jesus Christ.
Naysayers bother me not…they have my pity and those that haven’t already gained and then denied their testimony (like Scott), will have the opportunity to learn the truth in time, either in this life or beyond. I just hope that Heavenly Father, in his wisdom, allows us to be the teachers of those that shouted loudest. 😉
All the best,
Michael
To all the haters out there who use the “magic rock” claim, so what. Does that mean it’s not true, because he used a magic rock? Those of you who use this pathetic come back to bash Joseph and the Book of Mormon, think about all the miracles and even weirder (not sure if that’s the best word, but you know what I’m trying to get at) things that happened all throughout the bible, especially the Old Testament. You’re just like the people of Noah’s day – you’ll believe things from the past, but when it happens in the present you won’t believe. Yes, the “magic rock” sounds weird on modern day (and truthfully I don’t even know all the details of it), but if it were written in the Old Testament would you think it was weird and the bible wasn’t true? I’d venture to say you wouldn’t.
And forget about Joseph for a second here, all I know is that the Book of Mormon has brought me closer to Christ than any other book, and yes I’ve read the entire bible. Even if the book was false, it does nothing but good in my life because I want to be more like Christ by reading it. And that makes me truly happy. And please don’t say that Mormons are not Christians, because even if you believe that Mormons believe in a “different or false Christ” (which doesn’t even make sense), being a Christian is much more about HOW YOU LIVE than WHAT/WHO YOU PROFESS TO BELIEVE IN. And I promise you, the Jesus in the bible and the Jesus in the Book of Mormon do not contradict each other.
So continue bashing and hating on a book that is focused on Jesus Christ. When you stand before God, if it is false, He will ask you why you bashed a book about The Savior, and if you haven’t read it He will ask you, why didn’t you read it and how could you bash a book you’ve never read? I doubt He will give you a fist pound and a wink and say “atta boy” like all of you haters think He will.
I implore you to educate yourself and to do some unbiased research of your own on the church’s beginnings. How can you judge others for not being educated about the Book of Mormon, when you admittedly know little to nothing about Joseph Smith and the origins of the Mormon church? You might be surprised by what you find.
Nicely said.
I think that many of us who have left the church take issue not so much with the rock in the hat, but with the fact that the Mormon church lied to us when it taught us differently, and continues to lie when it publishes and displays images of Joseph thoughtfully looking at the gold plates as he translated them, when this is not how it happened at all. And, that is just one of the many ways the church has been dishonest in portraying the early years and origins of the church. How many wives were you taught (in church) that Joseph had? Yeah, me too.
No, the problem is the fact that church teaches a different narrative to children and investigators. If it’s no big deal, why be less than transparent? Probably because it sounds bad once you realize that the plates and Urim and Thummim were taken from JS by Moroni after 116 pages episode. So, literally the whole Book of Mormon was translated with just the rock in a hat. The plates weren’t even present, according to Church History and D&C. So, it changes a lot. Why would Moroni lug around plates which have been protected for generations, then JS has to go every year for 4 years to get them because they contain a sacred text that will kill anyone other than JS for handling them.. Oh jk guys!! Just need a rock in a hat.
Thanks for the post. The Beit-Lehi foundation could be further proof of the validity of the book. Links his name to that geography and could be the ‘cavity of rock’ referred to as a hideout when they fled from Laban.
Bottom line with all of this resides in your final comment about the spirit and power of God confirming truth and guiding us when we are receptive to His promptings.
Doesn’t surprise me one bit that some don’t believe or stop believing. We are all human and in this together. Just because some have claims of invalidity doesn’t shake my belief. Id much rather trust a book that teaches doctrine about how to be a better person, serve our fellow men, love Christ, make covenants to be pure and honest with our spouses and families, and seek to become more like him while others may feel confident in letting their youth cling to the latest phone app, video game, or social media.
Time will tell for all to know for certain. But anyone who hasn’t given it a fair shot is of the ‘ready, fire, aim’ mentality that can injure growth and progression.
Keep the faith!
I recently attended a seminar that went into detail about one of the scripts Martin Harris is believed to have used when he asked scholars to translate part of the BOM. It was very interesting. Journals from non LDS men, one being the translator of the Rosetta Stone have statements about the language being from an old ancient people that are no longer here. I saw all the history and the journal entries myself. I saw and learned so much that strengthened my belief in this gospel. I’d love to comment again with the direct names and history once I get it from my notes. It was an amazing seminar that will probably have the information published in the near future.
JSH 1:33
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
Can we say. . . prophesy fulfilled?
Boy Greg it sure is easier to go up against people who are consumed in their own religious lunacy than it is to discredit scholars and palientologists and DNA experts isn’t it?
I can totally see why you would start by making the statement that most people who disbelieve the Book of Mormon haven’t read it. Too bad that statement is completely untrue.
Many of your follow up questions can be answered with the name “Solomon Spalding”. I had to laugh when Jeffrey Holland mentioned Solomon’s name only to assure hundreds of thousands of people who had never heard of Spalding that everything hasd been disproven anyway so they shouldn’t trouble themselves.
I find it comical that you close with the statement that the most important question is how you “feel” reading the Nook of Mormon. So we’re back to feelings again eh?
Best wishes, Greg. Believe what makes you feel happy. Science is not for everyone.
Neither is love. There is no bearing on this “feeling” of love this world deceives us into believing is real. What a bunch of buffoons! Love is this magical cosmic imaginative creation, like air, that we use to make ourselves feel better about our convictions. What am I thinking?! I belong to a church based on feelings from what I thought was a higher power. I am married to a wife who I thought I loved but it turns out we should never trust our feelings. What are my 2 kids worth, nothing! It was all some scam based on my own deceptive “feelings!”
Get it?
Hi, I’m one of the hundreds of thousands of people that have heard of Spalding. The book that by one of his relatives was declared to describe hebrews coming to the Americas and having names like Nephi in it.
The book that about almost a century ago was discovered and was found to have nothing that Spaldings relative had described at all. In fact it is probably one of the most least convincing anti-mormon attacks in existence considering the book is so openly available to the public today.
So sorry you fell into the internets lies and chose not to investigate yourself.
“Science is not for everyone.”
You mean man’s science or God’s science? Accepting man’s science is definitely not for everyone. in fact, man’s science is set up in am manner which its conclusions are NOT to be accepted categorically but with the acceptance that a latter conclusion will render the present conclusion null. God’s science is definitely for everyone.
“Science” is “scientia” in the Latin and means “knowledge”. What knowledge are you saying Greg doesn’t desire?
Greg,
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony. I too have a testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which believes the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God. I too believe with every fiber of my being in the Book of Mormon. Thank you.
I know it sounds ridiculous to say “I know it’s true” when it’s kinda impossible to temporally KNOW something which lacks irrefutable, material facts. And God wants it that way. If God wanted all of His children to HAVE to believe in Him, He would appear to us, PROVING his existence. If God wanted everyone to have to accept facts about the Book of Mormon, where would faith have a place? As wonderful as it would be to be handed the true and everlasting gospel, no one is. FAITH is the key to the Book of Mormon and faith is a choice. Agency was given to all Children of God, therefore, our Heavenly Father provides us with the right to read the book and decide for ourselves if we want to accept the Book as well as His gospel. It’s all about faith, my friends.
I know it has brought me joy. That is a fact. This Book and this Gospel make me happy. I Love what I am a part of. I love the things I learn and feel. I love my Savior. Those are facts to me. And as I do the things the Book of Mormon teaches, I feel myself growing and becoming a better person.
But I came to all my conclusions about the gospel on my own. No one thrust it on me. So if you read the book with an open heart and and open mind, then pray with sincere intent to know for yourself if it’s true and God tells you no, then I won’t complain. Whatever God has told you or how He made you feel is for you. And what he tells me is for me. And I have been told, through the Spirit of Revelation (which is for all who come unto him, and even those who don’t) that the Book of Mormon is a True Testament of Jesus Christ and the Gospel it restored in 1830 is of God.
This probably means nothing to most the people who will read it.
Some may even reply with some sort of rebuttal like a correction of grammar or some big, professional looking flow chart for why all Mormons are devil worshippers
But the testimony I have is not going to waver, so there’s no point in trying to prove me wrong.
Thanks for reading! 🙂
I’m sorry. I was referring to the “chloroform in print” version and not the Kindle version, “Nook” of Mormon.
Don’t worry. I’m sure Mark Twain never actually read it either. 😉
Mark Twain was a religious cynic, period. He condemned the bible and Book of Mormon vehemently.
Translation- “Mark Twain disagrees with my worldview. Therefore you should scoff at his comments”
Thanks for the post Greg, it has definitely stirred some activity. What is amazing to me is the rapid response team ready to poke the holes in it. They jumped on it so fast it’s like you tipped them off or something.
Or maybe they are just so prepared that the minute they find something supporting Mormon theology, they are ready to pounce. There is some great intangible force driving the self-appointed LDS truth police. What is it? A few of these responders appear to have doctorate degrees in anti-Mormonism or maybe they’ve written theses on the fraudulent claims of Mormonism. Weird stuff- what is this force that motivates so much time and effort? If I didn’t have such a strong testimony of the restored gospel, I could think of so many better things to do with those hours and hours they’ve clearly spent researching the Mormon religion.
I’ve seen my fair share of huckster religions and movements out there and logic and reason help me recognize the fallacies in their logic and move on…usually takes about 30 minutes of studying their history and doctrine.
But this- this response is mind blowing. These people have spent months, maybe even years trying to disprove Mormonism. They are so good with their “facts” and seem so happy with how smugly they can present them, giving an air of such self-satisfaction, fully believing that they are making the stupid Mormon sheep start to doubt their faith.
What is the force that drives them? If they are so sure that the Book of Mormon is a fraud, why can’t they just have their fun and move on? They just can’t do it, there is this crazy force that compels them to stick around, hover, even seek out opportunities to attack. What is it? What is driving them? Is it that they care so much about Mormons who are being lead astray? Nah, their mocking tone makes clear that is not the case. So what is it? What is this force that sucks them in, renders them completely unable to escape the clutches of Mormonism?
Just a suggestion, but maybe you could try to take this on for your next post.
Love to see the comments on that post 😉
Actually the burden of proof is on you. Some things are hard to disprove. Especially stories told where there are no witnesses. And yet we HAVE disproven the veracity of the Book of Mormon. You have LOST. You just don’t realize it yet.
DNA evidence disproves the Book of Mormon. No horses. Game over.
These discussions on anti or pro BOM ( cute synonym ) pun intended, has been some of the most interesting religious banter I’ve heard to this day. All of it very compelling and some educated responses and lack their of (opinion not fact). In my opinion most humans have an innate ability with spirituality when we are born. Growing up, spirituality can be convoluted into people telling us what is right or wrong according to their upbringing and examples their parents or guardians, etc..gave them. For example religion and other sources of disciplines such as quotes, written speeches from successful people that seem right because of their noted successes as we ( humans ) at times define success and religion because of others in power.
All of us have a right to choose what we believe and how we believe which doesn’t make us right or wrong it makes us human. Religion isn’t a right or wrong it’s a choice a belief system structured in your brain by you and feelings you got from diction you’ve read or by others you’ve allowed to influence your opinion on your beliefs. Still opinion not fact.
Religion is man made; its a personal choice. Whether you believe in it is a choice. Whether its right or wrong is an opinion. Only you can make things right or wrong… fact.
As far as people being self righteous about religion let them. Don’t take it personal. Who cares what their opinions are. If it directly affect you than address it, if it’s against the law than take action, if it doesn’t affect you than let it be. It doesn’t make them bad or right or wrong it’s their opinion. If you’re a good person regardless of preference of religion or spirituality and without judging others of their mistakes or shortcomings in reflection to your own personal flaws than you’re doing great in my opinion.
However if your religion or your spirituality judges others without your near “perfect” attitude being an example of what’s right in “God’s eyes” as we have claimed him, she or it to be than let’s put the finger pointing down and listen to one another with respect or don’t listen and politely dismiss ourselves from the conversation and go in another direction instead of being self righteous about our own spirituality or religion beliefs. Again just an opnion:)
Dont believe everything you read on google
Nope you are wrong. People have been looking for DNA evidence in the wrong location. Look up information about Haplogroup X found in the North American great lakes region Native American DNA. It is also found in Europe . Go ahead an Google it I did not make it up.
So the because something hasn’t been found yet in a vast world of archaeology means that it’s not true. Huh…..OK……………?
Amy – are you anti-religion in general? or are you just anti-Mormon?
As it has been noted – there are a number of things in the Bible that seem impossible – but yet they are believed because with God everything is possible. How did Moses get water by striking a rock? Is that even scientifically possible in the desert? Are there patents out there for such devices because surely science is able to prove that is possible to create validity for it.
If you are anti-religion then I guess I just have to feel sorrow for your loss. If you believe the Bible but want to use science rationale to disprove the BOM then I just have pity on you for your double sided dispute.
Amy – Please cite how you know this. Because I have talked to archaeologists who say otherwise….
You sure put a lot of faith in “science.” How do you handle your convictions when science has to backtrack and admit it had something wrong? Or a new discovery that overrides previous facts and understandings? Is science a big hoax to you as well?
The difference, Brody, is that science admits when it is wrong based on new evidence. It is religion that can never adapt or backtrack because the “truth” had already been laid out.
That is such an uninformed response! DNA is not so easy, nor so all inclusive. Our science is good, interesting and, at best, the best it can be at any given time, but it changes as time goes on and more things are learned. Are, or anyone, so willing to weigh it in, at any given point, against faith and sure knowledge of things given through faith, at your own peril? God’s plan, and history, is unchangeable and sure. Science turns right and left at regular intervals based on many true and false things. You have to really know that. Put it on your faith shelf and move forward and the answers will eventually come to you! Good luck! Try not to be negative.
Mormonism turns right and left at regular intervals, as when the church changed its view on polygamy and allowing blacks into the church.
That is one narrative. By that narrative, it turned away from including those of black heritage when it stopped ordaining black members to the priesthood after the death of Joseph Smith in response to the manifesto that eventually resulted in Missouri Executive Order 44.
In that manifesto, the signatories state:
“…intending, as we do, to rid our society, “peaceably if we can, forcibly if we must,” and believing as we do, that the arm of the civil law does not afford us a guarantee, or at least a sufficient one against the evils which are now inflicted upon us…”
A sentiment that was echoed in the text of Executive Order 44 from Governor Boggs to General Jon B. Clark:
“Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operation with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state…”
And one of the principal reasons for this hullabaloo was because, as the manifesto puts it…
“In a late number of the Star, published in Independence by the leaders of the sect, there is an article inviting free Negroes and mulattoes from other states to become “Mormons,” and remove and settle among us. This exhibits them in still more odious colors. It manifests a desire on the part of their society, to inflict on our society an injury…”
I guess it would be impossible that a faith that was facing extinction partially on the basis of equal treatment of those of black heritage, and forced into exile and migration that directly resulted, even by the most generously conservative estimates, the deaths of likely more than 100 souls over and above the normal mortality rate for westward migration, might eschew the practices for a time. I suppose that it is impossible that the covenant people of of Abraham could be preserved from extinction in abject slavery – a practice that is an affront to God and man – and then restored to the promised land at a later time. It certainly would not represent an established precedent of God in scriptural cannon for any such sequence of events.
Things that make you go, hmmm…
“DNA lineages are often lost during the course of evolution, even in short periods of time. Today, no South American native group presents the X [mitochondrial DNA] lineage, which is universal among North American native groups. However, DNA extracted a few years ago from human skeletons from the Brazilian Amazon, dated to only a couple thousand years ago, showed clearly that the X lineage was
present in South America.”
Walter Neves, from Science News, Scientific American, December 13, 2005.
I wasn’t going to touch the whole DNA thing. Because when peoples backs are to wall with concrete proof they use the whole “the devil is trying to confuse you” argument.
It should be up to this jack hole to prove all this if he is going to write something like this. He isn’t going to recruit anyone. And if he does, great! One more person I can laugh at and slam the door on.
I assume you are Atheist. Here is why – no rational believer in a higher power would ever act in such a way, claim to be supported and backed by God, and be considered sane. We know obvious example of the extremist/radical zealots who would be a suicidal bomber in the name of God, and we know that person is off, way off. How I correlate you to that individual? Let’s think, when has a Godly figure (God, Christ, Allah, etc.) ran around “disproving” others, and then declaring, “I win! You lost!” Look, take a step back and you might see what an observer would see. That perspective, which many have reading this thread, helps one decipher whose side one is on. We can clearly see light and darkness in matters like this.
I completely agree with you. Under most other circumstances people do their 10 minutes of research, come to their conclusions and then move on. I cant imagine spending my time seeking out blogs that discuss things I don’t believe in or disagree with when there would be zero bearing on my life. But almost immediately this had 50+ comments in disagreement. Do they all follow this blog? Why? What a strange force that compels them in their destructive quest. Strangely, their tenacity only strengthens my conviction.
Original version copied the translators notes from the King James Bible.
yep, it’s a true book alright, just as true as Star Wars, Harry Potter, lord of the rings.
Greg, I would like to asked you a serious question, please write to me
[email protected]
Do you believe in 6ft tall moon people too?
Greg,
While I seriously question your critical thinking skills, you seem like a good guy and the LDS Church clearly makes you and your family happy. Isn’t that really what’s important? Also, props for allowing dissenting views in your comments.
Wow. I just read through these comments just waiting for refutation of the points made countering Greg’s 1-10 “proofs/questions.” It’s fair to profess your belief in the Book of Mormon, and it’s fair to defend that belief on your blog. But if you are going to defend your belief via rational arguments, you had better make sure you have read the information pro- and contra- your points.
Your worst point is claiming that people who attack the book have never read it. I have read the Book of Mormon dozens of times, and the arguments against is ancient nature still give me a lot of head scratching.
Unfortunately, a productive dialogue has not come out of this. There are Greg’s points, and then there are a few people refuting Greg’s 1-10. I haven’t seen anyone defend against the problems raised about Greg’s arguments. Just personal attacks like “these people are so negative” or “satan is doing his work with these people” or whatever. Otherwise it’s “I feel it’s true,” and “I testify…”
Again, I think it is hard, if not impossible, to prove the Book of Mormon is/isn’t a fraud. But using the arguments above does not do much on the side of proving much of anything.
Hi Greg,
Thank you for your beautiful words and testimony. I have enjoyed reading your blog posts lately. But some of the comments on here are atrocious. I can’t even read them! I sincerely hope and pray that you will not be led astray by these “firey darts” of the adversary. Satan knows you are doing a great work on this blog and he has unleashed all kinds of crazy attackers on you!! I am so sorry!! The world needs beautiful and bold testimonies like yours. Please stay strong and keep the faith. And don’t publish this comment! Haha. I have happily shared your posts on Facebook 🙂 you rock.
I will keep this simple. If you REALLY want know the truth about God and the big questions of life, and if you diligently, consistently, and sincerely seek with an open mind and an open heart, you WILL be led to the truth. I know. I did. If you have not been led to the truth, or if you have not recignized when you were, you did not fulfill these requirements I listed.The creator of this world is fully capable of manifesting himself to you, and he will, IF you do your part. If you do not, you have no promise.. It is up to you.
i have read through much of the negative responses related to this post and have truthfully found none of the compelling. it’s easy to criticize and attack and to make sweeping, irresponsible statements but is much harder to humbly search for truth. it is much easier to be blinded by the world and its teachings and not so easy to walk the straight and narrow.
truth is, all this negativity surrounding the book of mormon, i believe, stands only as further testament to its validity.
when Christ walked the earth He was persecuted by the scholars and religious leaders of His time. they had their ‘evidences’ and ‘proofs’ against Him and it didn’t matter how many miracles He performed or how perfectly His coming fulfilled divine prophecy, or how wonderful his teachings were, they would not see and they criticized and crucified Him. why should it be any different now? do we live in a day where there are not modern pharisees and hypocrites and haters so blinded by their own learning that they too cannot see? sadly, our day has all the trappings of ancient times and the majority of the world is still not ready for Christ and His church, and won’t be until He comes again.
here’s something to consider for all you who spend so much energy and time attacking mormons and their faith: if the book of mormon is so bad why does it promote so much good? if the book of mormon really isn’t true why do you care so much to destroy it? i don’t see this same level of negativity unloaded on buddhists, or hindus, or methodists, or baptists, or any other religion or sect. why so many attacks? i think for those who are true in heart the answer is obvious. Christ Himself said, “if they have persecuted me they will also persecute you.” He also said, something so profound and yet overlooked so often, “a good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit, nor CAN bad tree produce good fruit.”
it may be a simple way to measure things, too simple, perhaps, for those educated in the ways of the world, nevertheless it has been a faithful measurement since the dawn of time.
i have read the king james version of the bible (both old and new testament) and the book or mormon from cover to cover many, many times. they both bringing me closer to Christ, they both help me to be a better person, they both are good, they both are the word of God.
Here’s a good quote:
Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pg. 155; “Don’t be concerned over Book of Mormon geography. Some say the Hill Cumorah was in southern Mexico (and someone pushed it down still farther) and not in western New York. Well, if the Lord wanted us to know where it was or where Zarahemla was, He’d have given us latitude and longitude, don’t you think? And why bother our heads trying to discover with archaeological certainty the geographical locations of the cities of the Book of Mormon like Zarahemla? (66-07) The witness of the Book of Mormon is not found in the ruins of Central and South America. They may be outward evidences of a people long since disappeared. The real witness is that which is found in the Book of Mormon itself. The Book of Mormon ought to be to you one of the most prized books you have. (73-21, p. 3) The Book of Mormon is its own best evidence. So far as we are concerned, the best evidence in the world of the truth of the Book of Mormon is the Book of Mormon itself. (72-19).”
Now the reason I posted this: I am a fairly logical person and I understand the importance of being able to prove some empirically. However, I believe that spiritual things can only be understood and proven spiritually. When I was 16 I prayed to find out for myself if the Book of Mormon was true. I did receive a VERY strong spiritual answer that it is true. I don’t need a host of empirical evidences to convince me (or even dissuade me) from what I have discovered to be true. I am, by nature, a very doubting person and believe quite strongly that all things must be proven by fact, tested, challenged, etc. At the same time, I believe with spiritual things that sometimes we have to put the empirical measures aside and test them the way that God would have them test them. The Book of Mormon itself tells us how to test the truthfulness of this book. It is the method mentioned by one of its prophet historians found in Moroni 10: 3-5. Now, I have put that to the test to the letter and I have absolutely no question that it’s true. Believe me, don’t believe me, call me a simple minded fool, bring to my attention a whole host of facts that prove me right or wrong- it doesn’t really matter. I know what method I used to test the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and I can honestly state that I found it to work. For the record, I’m not some bumpkin that fell off the tractor and hit his head. I am well- educated, well-read, understand implicitly how important scholarship is in this world, etc. I maintained a 4.0 average in a highly competitive degree, etc. I intend no disrespect for those with an opposing point of view, but can say with certainty (and without mesmerism, voodoo, brain-washing, etc.) that The Book of Mormon is true.
Your post is great. Like the comment above, I too am amazed at the rapid response of people trying to put you down. If they don’t believe then read your post smile, make some kind of short concise comment about how your blinded and move on!
I’ve often wondered how people during Christ’s time could see the Savior, feel His love and watch him do miracles and still not believe in him. But those same kind of people are living now! They have so many things around them including the Book of Mormon and yet they still don’t believe or perhaps want to believe in modern miracles and modern revelation! I add my testimony to yours! The Book of Mormon is true!
Thanks Greg!
All these negative comments, especially those that make fun of you saying you provide no proof but they can’t provide proof it’s not true and most have not even picked the book up, but they confirm to me that with all the negativity there must be something special and a huge part is how special the Book of Mormon is! Keep the faith and thanks for sharing! Another reason I love this church is that we don’t waste our time posting, preaching, and protesting other religions or attacking their beliefs because that would go against so many important principles! Thank you for this post!!!
Something I don’t fully understand in all my years, and I’m definitely getting up there, is the creepy compulsion ex-mormons have in continuously returning to poke, prod, troll, or simply stalk followers of their “former” religion.
Who does that?
While I may not know the precise explanation for that particular psychological dysfunction, I DO KNOW the types of people who DON’T.
Those truly at peace with themselves don’t.
Those completely in tune with their Creator and His Son don’t.
Those committed to living a Christ-like life, full-time, all of the time, don’t.
Those who read and prayerfully study the Bible continuously don’t.
Those ex-members who have been touched by true acts of service at some time, from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, even though those members expected nothing in return don’t.
Those ex-mormons who witnessed miracles by the power of the Holy Priesthood, possibly even owing their own life to a miracle, but found actually living as a devout member too difficult. They don’t.
Those ex-mormons who actually had a testimony, or experienced a witness, and are smart enough to fear God, even if they no longer call themselves Mormons. They don’t dare.
Those who have studied religion, with an emphasis on Religion in World History, sufficiently enough to realize there isn’t a thing they can possibly do or say, even if they devote their entire life to attacking the LDS faith, that will make it go away. Or alter the faith of those who believe in following Christ. They don’t.
Those who really understand human nature and the power of belief don’t.
Those who simply observe how many thousands of years “anti-christians” have attempted to annihilate Christians of any flavor–even before His birth. They don’t, because they already understand the futility. They don’t need reality demonstrated ad nauseum.
Those who are entirely, 100% sure with every fiber of their being don’t come back to Mormon bash. Why would they? There would be nothing in it for them. Unless they need the false pretense of assurance they may temporarily feel when they think they’ve beaten it down a bit. Maybe they can finally sleep better, live freer, carry less doubt, if they can just beat it down enough…
They don’t. They can’t.
1. “Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?”
There is nothing historically accurate. Joseph Smith was well educated. Only your community teaches that he didn’t go to school. It is widely accepted and evident that this is false. No “prophecy” from this book has come true other than “prophecy” that was “recorded” during the the time that the Book of Mormon “took place.” This is where his education comes into play. He recalled something from history and put it in his book and said his imaginary people already said that and called it “prophecy”.
2. “Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone?” Refer to previous answer.
3. “How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.” Books. Maps. The Middle East was widely explored, mapped, and documented hundreds of years before Joseph Smith’s time. Again, Joe’s storybook is not historically accurate.
4. “How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?” Education. Books.
5. “If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.” Beware of false prophets. It doesn’t matter how nice I am to everyone. I can still be evil if I am successfully turning them from God without them knowing it.
6. “Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?” Gentiles.
7. “Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?” 1. Aliens 2. False Prophets.
8. “If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?” This only applies if you believe he is right. But the answer? Uncanonized scripture. It’s still out there, but is not pertinent to salvation as laid out in the Living Word of God, also called the Holy Bible.
9.. “How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.” False Prophets. False Prophets. False Prophets.
10. “How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.” It was written by one dude checking his work to make sure that he didn’t leave include any continuity errors in his fantasy publication. The Bible however was compiled my many dudes who didn’t know each other. People that actually existed. People that are documented outside of the Bible. People that archaeology has proven to exist. Unlike ALL of the people in the BoM. Please show me the archaeological evidence forthe people claimed to have lived in the Americas back then. Why do we have much older civilization that have left huge archaeological footprints, while the “ancient Jews that built boats sailed to America” didn’t leave a trace?
11. How do you feel when reading the BoM? Dirty. Betrayed. Betrayed by your false prophets.
I hope this helps you in your journey of finding the truth.
To boil it all down
1. You are being lied to about all of your points and archaeology and history can show you that.
2. Beware of false prophets.
3. The 9 middle questions are all contingent on the implications in question number one being true…. Which they aren’t.
Greg, Thank you for your testimony. Although I see it all the time, it is always incredible that these things are debated. Of all things, these things.
Jesus is the Savior of the world. He leads the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Sarah
A man comes closer to God by reading a book and we ridicule him and tell him he’s wrong! What is wrong with people? Even if scholars proved, without question, the Book of Mormon to be completely wrong do you think Greg would stop reading it- No! It is evident that he loves it and that it brings him, and a lot of members of the church closer to God. Whether it’s true or false I doubt at this man’s judgement God is gonna say ” Sorry Greg, if you just didn’t read the Book of Mormon you could have made it… I mean I know it taught of Christ but it wasn’t exactly true.” I just don’t see this scenario happening.
Keep the faith!
Awesome post Greg! Wow the haters are out in force with this one. I find it amazing how much time people will spend hating against Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. The truth is that the Book of Mormon is true and no amount of hate or lies can deny it.
Greg.
My intent is to add my testimony to Greg’s and to all those people that have come before me. To all those who is doubt and try to bring down The Book of Mormon, I say try. Try as you will to prove the Book wrong. I can tell you now that you will never succeed. For this Book is the word of God. I have come to know this for myself because I asked, and I have questioned the Book. No man can halt the work of God. And this, the Book of Mormon, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is the work of God. I Bear this testimony with all my heart, might, mind and soul. “I want it absolutely clear when I stand before the judgment bar of God that I declared to the world … that the Book of Mormon is true.”
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/safety-for-the-soul?lang=eng&query=Jeffrey+R.+Holland
Thank you Greg for this awesome and truthful post. I too know that the Book of Mormon is true. Your testimony is a great example to me. There will always be opposition when it comes to sharing what you believe. I’m proud of you Greg! Way to go!
I loved this article Greg. I have been reading several of these and I love your insight and the way you think. You were definitely given a talent. I support you 100%! Keep them coming. I’ve studied the history, I go to FAIR conferences and listen to their great podcasts and then I read the scriptures and listen to the prophets’ words equally like you said in another post. I’ve been following this advice for two years now and I’ve never been filled with so much light and peace than I have recently. What a great time to be a member alongside people like you!!
I know the Book of Mormon is true… That’s all there is to it, no man convinced me of this and no man can convince me other wise. I know through the power of the Holy Ghost that this is a book of god! Another testament of Jesus Christ, that can lead us to a life of happiness and prosperity. We invite all to read and ask god of its truthfulness. If you chose not to it’s your loss not mine.
Just remember the truth is hard on the ears of the wicked, and contention is the sprit of the devil that stirreth up the hearts of man to contened one with another
Wow, Greg. You have a massive ex-Mormon following. You would think these guys would have something better to do with their lives… maybe they could start a charity or work at a soup kitchen or write an uplifting novel. But it seems they have determined that the absolute most useful thing they can do with their limited time on this Earth is find some nice guy sharing his inner most spiritual feelings and bash him. You must be flattered!
There are basically two types of ex-Mormons on your list as far as I can tell 1) the I’ve discovered a better, simpler (easier) Jesus/God to follow type, and 2) the I’m too smart for religion type (aka ‘El Skeleton’ in Nacho Libre). Looks like you have a good mix of both. It’s interesting how easily both types can tear down something good and uplifting. Funny though how they don’t bash each other though. I’ve often wondered about that. Certainly the first group could/should be damning/saving the second group. And the second group ought to be enlightening the first with their profound wisdom and scientific knowledge.
In any case I’m fairly confident that they at least all have this in common: I’ve never met an ex-Mormon who still gives ten percent of his/her income to charity, avoids harmful and addictive substances and abstains from extramarital sex. I guess those things are too hard to do, so its convenient to just declare the BoM false and then you get to do whatever you want (regardless of which of the two types you are…)
Keep up the blog!
Thank you for writing this Greg. I thought it was well written. I am amazed at all of the Anti’s that have commented on here. It is comical to me to see that they are always so bold in breaking down someone else’s religion, but they are afraid to put their own beliefs up on the pedestal for everyone else to critique. “I don’t believe in anything”, “I only believe in hard evidence”…..blah, blah, etc. Cowards! That’s what you all are. So guilt ridden that you have to continually smash the church and prove to yourself that it is not true so you can justify your poor choices and bad behavior. It’s okay though, God knows you.
I read your post with great interest and appreciate your desire to know and serve God!
I am sorry that many Mormons who have read the responses asking for specific references/proof of your claims see these responses as ill willed and hateful. Many are loving Christians trying desperately to share the truth of the Bible and point out a very serious error in reasoning and/or proven, troubling errors in the Book of Mormon. Our approach should always be kind and represent the amazing love that God has for all He has created! I apologize for the times the delivery is unkind and unloving. I know that is very hurtful.
As a Christian, who has a deep love for many Mormons, I am saddened when I read posts like this because I want my wonderful Mormon friends to enjoy the freedom of life in Christ here and a home in Heaven with Christ for eternity. My soul is anguished to watch people being deceived through feelings and teaching not consistent with the Bible. Seeing those same people unwilling to read research proof that has been carefully collected clearly showing major problems with doctrinal inconsistencies and the very troubling background/practices of Joseph Smith makes my heart hurt. I do not want my friends, who believe with all their heart they are following God, to be misled and not experience salvation and Heaven!
Many atheists have set out to prove the Bible wrong, and that God does not exist, and have instead become believers after finding undeniable evidence that the Bible is true! Read “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” or “The Case for Christ”. Both are filled with strong research from reputable sources.
There is nothing more important that living your life as a follower of Christ. Please make sure you are not being deceived and following the wrong One! Read the Bible and don’t be afraid to read some of the evidence showing the problems with the Book of Mormon. If you are able to poke holes in this evidence–your faith in the Book of Mormon will be stronger and based in truth! If not, you will be free from deception and filled with God’s truth, peace, and light! We are not pointing out errors to be spiteful or to persecute you faithful people, but to be loving and point you in the direction of freedom and truth!
Much love and many prayers for your salvation through the true Savior!
Greg,
During my mission I learned a very important lesson trying to prove the things of God to be true through any of these ways you tried in this post never worked. Even if they did work it was worthless and had no power for real conversion. If you want to make a difference in lives of others stick to teaching truths, testifying if them and then invite then to do something that helps then feel the spirit of the principle. Until others feel the spirit of the truth and recognize it for what it is no amount of tangible evidence has any worth. All that happens is a continuous argument over what evidence is real and what it means.
Thanks for your comments Greg and getting people thinking. Everyone needs to decide for themselves if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and if the Book of Mormon is truly another testament of Jesus Christ. I’m with you in believing that both these things are true. From the beginning of time, people have always been skeptical about religious truths and have wanted to prove them false. From comments people have made above, I want to point out that Sidney Rigdon joined the church and met Joseph Smith after the Book of Mormon was published. Some skeptics claim that this was not true (Spalding-Rigdon theory), but most historians have come to the conclusion that this is theory is false.
It amazes me how much good and truth we have gained from the restoration! So if Joseph Smith, his family (read Joseph Smith History by Lucy Mack Smith) and all of his followers created the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they were all the greatest con artists to ever walk the face of the earth!
I can’t think of any better people who are more Christ like than Thomas S Monson, Pres. Ucktdorf, Pres. Eyring, Elder Holland, Elder Bednar, Cook, etc.! These inspired leaders help better the lives of millions of people on the earth today.
I guess we won’t know without a doubt until we leave this earth life, but if I’m wrong and your critics are right, then the falsehood Joseph Smith created helped me to learn to be more Christ-like than what all the critics out there are learning. And I would rather error on the side of all these great leaders than on your critic’s side.
One more suggestion for those of you who are questioning. Make sure you spend a minimum of equal time reading info from the church as you do outside the church. Otherwise, you will end up like all these critics who have decided they are smarter than all the rest of us and those who sacrificed so much to bring this all to pass.
Greg-
I thank you for your courage. I’m sure it would be easy for you to go on and live a comfortable life without sharing your testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world.
Although I don’t know the exact reason why you feel compelled to share your testimony, I want you to know what your example does for me. I too have had countless experiences confirming to me from a loving God that the Book of Mormon is a true witness of His Son Jesus Christ… but I don’t always share. Your blog invites me to stand and share what God has also made known to me through the power of the Holy Ghost. I would be, and am, selfish when I keep this to myself.
For any that are honestly seeking to know if this book is true, don’t take my word for it, or anyone else’s word for it. Read it and then ask God if it is true. He is your Father and He loves you and He will answer your sincere pleas. That is how I found my answer and I invite you to do the same.
Its funny how when you apply the principles taught in the book of mormon you just live happier lives. Sad to see how much effort has been made to justify not living by it. Alma 32. It’s that Mormon haughtiness thats like a cancer in our Church that leads people away and produces noxious weeds that choke out those seeds of faith and keep them from producing fruit and reaching their true potential.
Concerning “knowing” based on a feeling after praying, I’d simply ask if you’d be willing to ask if the BOM is NOT true. How come nobody ever does that? The answer would be the same regardless, but it’s because we want to believe or we were raised to believe and are looking for validation. The power of suggestion we feed each other as Mormons is very real and powerful, but it doesn’t make it true. The next time you meet a Muslim, try telling him that the a prophet Mohammed’s book isn’t true because the feelings he has felt that allow him to “KNOW” it’s true, are wrong……but YOU happen to be right……
Well said Jon!
The book is true, God loves us, and his Son gave his life for us. The BOM is another testimony of this. If one testimony is good for you then so be it, why be such haters? By their fruit you shal know them.
BTW Corona Del Mar would be a beautiful place to receive your testimony, I love that place.
Like many here, I’m an enthusiastic “Mormon”, and have been since I read the Book of Mormon shortly after my sophomore year at college. My parents had joined the church before I was eight, and I was baptized at the appropriate age, but I left home at the age of 16, and returned at twenty. One reason was to get into Mormonism with both feet, or get my family out of this cult. I had started with Fawn Brodie’s bio, No Man Knows My History, and had read most of the critical stuff out at that time. The Mormons I knew were pretty straightforward, and I also listened to their answers. As I dug deeper, the answers by faithful and thoughtful church members were head and shoulders above the attacks of the critics. All this happened over fifty years ago, yet the same old chestnuts are thrown out today. As I’ve watched over the years, it seems to me that sufficient answers to the critics have been put forward time and time again, yet the responses are ignored, the old arguments brushed off and repeated as if the responses never existed. All this charge and countercharge have some intellectual appeal, but my testimony of the Book of Mormon does not rest upon external evidence.
I’ve read the book. It changed my life.
The basis of my testimony rests upon the sure witness of the Holy Ghost, though the relatively recent discovery of Nahum and it’s ancient burial ground, right where Lehi and Nephi said it was, is comforting. Still, it’s hardly controlling, just evidence. In similar fashion, I love the Psalms of David. Although I can take comfort in recent discoveries indicating David may have actually existed, it does not really change how his writings affect me.
Gracias, Greg. Sigue adelante! Brigham Young dijo: “Cuando empesamos a construir un templo de Dios empiesan a sonar las campanas del infierno…….”
Noting your business in the sidebar, I have one more thing to say “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair
Thank you Greg!!! You have changed my life. I read the Book of Mormon like you said and prayed about it. No matter what anyone else’s comments are, I have received a confirmation from God that it is true. No facts or evidences of man could change that. I have come to know Jesus Christ more because of the Book of Mormon. I am so grateful. Thank you for sharing your testimony!
Greg, I really enjoyed your words. I respect all sincere views on these issues. I recognize that there are legitimate challenges to the BOM, which for some are insurmountable. For those that express doubts or have reached the conclusion that the book is a fraud (which is the case with some family members and recently with a close personal friend), I respect you and your position. My friendship and love transcends our differences.
In the sincerity of my heart, I love the words of the Book of Mormon. The power of its message is unmatched in my life. In my opinion, no book is a stronger advocate for goodness and faithfulness. The more I study the book, the more I am moved by the power of it’s repeated invitation to come unto Christ and fascinated by the richness of it’s many themes. I feel that the book has brought me closer to Christ than anything else in my life. My conclusion is that this is good fruit.
I’m just gonna put my two cents into this. The Book of Mormon has never lead me to do something evil. I have never felt the urge to sin because of what the Book of Mormon says. And to be honest that is evidence enough. If someone were to put forth perfect evidence that it is a made up book, I would still read it because of what it has done for me.
The Book of Mormon has lead me to be a better person. That’s a good enough reason to read it and study it for me.
There seems to be an idea that anti-Mormons are people who live to disprove the LDS church. In my experience, the people you are calling “anti-Mormon” are former Mormons who did a lot of this research not to prove the church was false, but to prove that it was true. Many are former seminary and institute teachers, Sunday School teachers, Relief Society teachers, bishops, stake presidents, Elder’s Quorum presidents, etc. who wanted to learn more about their religion and found out a lot more than they ever expected. This wasn’t from reading outside material but by researching the LDS church’s own writings. And once they discovered things that challenged their beliefs, they continued their search. Since this searching tends to discredit much of what they ever believed, of course they become obsessed with it. The LDS church is not just a place to worship; it is a way of life. To begin to realize that it isn’t what it claims to be is devastating to the former believer, as it changes everything about their lives. The walls crumble and one is left in a very vulnerable state as family relationships, friendships, job situations can be affected. The decision to leave the church is one of the most difficult decisions one can make if one was formerly a true believer, and it is belittling to accuse them of being sinful or lazy.
To accuse the so-called “anti-Mormons” of having never read the Book of Mormon is disingenuous as most of them have read it repeatedly in their lives and have studied church history more thoroughly than those who are now active. These people have had to change everything in their lives to live authentically.
Each of us gets to choose our religious path, and for many people it will be the LDS church that will help them to be the best person they can be. For many more people in the world, it will be another religion or philosophy. My wish is that everyone is able to discover the journey that will lead them to their best self and to happiness. I believe that loving our fellowman is the most important responsibility we have next to loving God.
I swear anti-mormons seem to have nothing better to do than scour the web and post all their google searched garbage everywhere. It’s surprising to me how easily people are willing to throw away their spiritual conviction for something they looked up once.
I’m surprised people still to this day bring up the Kinderhook Plates. That idea was dismissed a half a century ago and proven completely false.
Mistakes and poor grammar? Well no duh, it was written by what Oliver Cowdery heard and then word for word printed by another man in his knowledge of grammar. Joseph Smith didn’t actually write with his hand the Book of Mormon.
Yes he was indeed uneducated, proven by how far he progressed in his studies. Also proven by actual notes and letters written by him at that age, and confirmed once again in several people’s journal entries. Later in life he became a great speaker, although Sidney Rigdon was better yes due to his experience, but the fact anybody here mentions Rigdon contributing to the book is pathetic considering they didn’t even know each other at the time.
For those of you that whine about DNA, well look at the Bible first. The Bible has documented a great many migrations and according to science none of it really makes sense. Probably because science isn’t quite as advanced and full of evidence as most people thought. Mostly just theories and guesses for history that long ago. Saying there wasn’t a relation to middle eastern people is really just a shot in the dark. Time can cover such things so easily, but hey none of you are actually science experts, you just pretend to be by something you read off the internet.
Aside from what Greg mentioned, the Book of Mormon has a monetary system, government, more poetry writing than just Chiasmus, and even several different voices. There’s actually computer technology nowadays that proves authorship, the Book of Mormon by computer and visual analysis has several writers, none of which match up to any of the writing styles of those who were involved in the witnessing or translating of the book. There was only one book ever that Joseph Smith could have sourced from for an idea, but it’s so completely vague in comparison to how the Book of Mormon turned out that there’s no possible way it could have been related.
Looking at the position of Joseph Smith, the people he knew, the materials he had access to, and any kind of resource available, he definitely would have been the most clever actor or forger or plagiarizer that has ever been known to walk the earth.
In all honesty though going back to the article; it’s the spiritual testimony and conviction that counts. A lot of people fail to experience that and they fall away never knowing what they missed. If you really had a true testimony of this book, I promised you all that no doubt would come close to entering into your heart simply because it is true. I know it is.
Thanks for sharing your comments. My u ncle is a scholar and has studied the book of morman most of his life, I can hardly understand him, but he believes and knows the book is true. He actually teaches others scholars about it. Its very cool. He gets jn to all that technical stuff about writings etc. I just like to keep it simple and ask god and just trust him 🙂
Or maybe computerized authorship tests aren’t quite as full of advancements and evidence as we thought….
I’m not familiar with the Kinderhook Plates thing being disproven. Do you have a link?
That’s why it’s still an issue man.. It was proven completely false… Oy
DNA evidence is a red herring, most “Nephites” had no more connection to Jewish DNA than most Mormons. “Nephite” was a matter of belief, not of DNA. I’ve been through BOM warfare (200,000 words!) and battles, and am working on BOM political science (100,000 words and counting), and it’s all real. For one example, it was written by someone who not only had seen Iron Age warfare, but understood it, had participated in it. BOM wars are written from the viewpoint of an expert, which rules out Joseph Smith in 1828.
1. “Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?”
Sure thing. Uneducated and illiterate people can still be intelligent, and JS was a great story teller. He wasn’t completely illiterate, but it doesn’t matter because aren’t we forgetting the Transcribers, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris who wrote whatever he said as he peered into a hat.
2. “Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?”
Of course if you’re making stuff up, and the story he made up has roots within his own life. As for things in the Book of Mormon that were discovered after JS was gone, I would like to see a reference.
3. “How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.”
Again, references.
4. “How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?”
So here are some names of places where Joseph Smith Grew up Pre-Book of Mormon.
Alma
Antrim
Antioch
Boaz
Hellam
Jacobsburg
Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkiminetas
Lehigh
Mantua
Moraviantown
Noah Lakes
Oneida
Oneida Castle
Rama
Ripple Lake
Sodom
Shiloh
Sherbrooke
And here are some names in the Book of Mormon.
Alma, Valley of
Antum
Ani-Anti
Boaz
Helam
Jacobugath
Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkumen
Lehi
Manti
Morianton
Noah, Land of
Onidah
Onidah, Hill
Ramah
Ripliancum, Waters of
Sidom
Shilom
Shurr
Hmm? Plagiarizing some names methinks.
5. “If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.”
Oh, I’m pretty sure he wrote it, and it’s fiction. I don’t believe in the devil, and what does a divided house have to do with whether or not the Book of Mormon is true or not? It either is, or isn’t.
6. “Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?”
I don’t believe in the bible either, but in it, Jesus walked a span of 90 miles, and the earth is a whole lot bigger. In fact, I would think that would cause one to question? If salvation is contingent on Jesus’s teachings, and believing in him, than why doesn’t God show everyone his son all at once? He is God, is he not? What about those who never heard of Jesus?
But, back on track, Joe Smith studied the bible. Stands to reason that he would build off it, doesn’t it?
7. “Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?”
So a bearded man visited the Americas. This I can believe. We know Vikings came here. I can even believe that a benevolent bearded man came to the Americas. I just need proof that it was Christ.
8. “If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?”
Speculation and jumping to conclusions. Seriously, you’re reaching. The bible itself is just a small collection of the dead sea scrolls cherry picked for compilation. I’m pretty sure there is a ton of literature out there that doesn’t see the modern light of day.
9. “How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.”
You haven’t studied this portion of the history, have you?
“I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.” Martin Harris
There’s quite a history here if you’re willing to learn it.
10. “How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.”
BUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Are you serious. I’ve got contradictions coming out of my ass there are so many.
I feel sad for those who don’t believe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because I truly believe and have seen from experience living without the principles of the Gospel (for me) brought unhappiness, bitterness and heartache. From the same sadness I feel for those who choose a different path, I feel real sadness for those who profess the truthfulness of the Church, but have so much hate and judgemental words for those who don’t. I believe this life is for a purpose. We are all here, brothers and sisters finding our way. We all have the freedom to choose. Not everyone will believe and not everyone will fall away because they are having an affair or something. The one thing I know and have been reminded through promptings of the Lord through the Holy Ghost is it is all about love. You don’t believe the church is true? Ok. Can I still give you these warm blankets and hygiene kit and some food because your house just was washed away? Even though you don’t believe my faith, does that make us enemies? Will we condone each other? Can we not look at each other as human beings who have the free agency of thought, of choice and respect that? Why must it be a “I am going to prove you wrong?” A healthy conversation, a respectful debate even, fantastic. GREG I appreciate your testimony, it is out of faith and your own personal experiences with the Church and the Book of Mormon. I too have a testimony that the Church of Christ was restored by our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ through the vessel Joseph Smith. I don’t have all the answers, but there are ones that I feel I do. Those are the ones I cleave to when I am unsure and then go to the Lord with my questions. This is a spiritual matter that I believe can’t be explained in a scientific way. And I know saying that causes such angst to some. I once told a friend, if it’s not true, then so what? I am a good person, I try to have a Christ centered life, I serve & find joy within giving my time and energy to helping whoever needs my help; doesn’t matter what religion, age, marital status or cultural background. I dont drink, don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, try to stay healthy and make peaceful, loving covenants with a God I believe gives me peace therein. How could one wish to lead those away from that peace and calm assurance? Why would one feel such a need to dislodge someone else’s belief for the sake of proving they are right? No matter what side of the door you stand in, we are all here for the same purpose, the same side. You don’t have to believe just because I do, but what could possibly be so awful about the way I live my life? I feel I have found peace and comfort, stability, love and promise. Of course I want to share this joy with others, but I recognize that just because I feel truth, doesn’t mean they will too. We all have our own perspectives, our own experiences, our own realities. My sister had the same parents I did growing up, same financial situation, same events; but we both have very different takes on how it went down. Who is right? Who is wrong? My sister is standing there swearing it went this way, when I know it went that way. What good does it do for me to persuade her to my side? I can give her my perspective, she can ponder it and empathize with my experiences, maybe even rethink what she believed happened. ..but realistically her view will stay the same. Because she believes it, she felt those experiences, she knows what happened. Bottom line, we love, we respect, we care about one another.
Thank Greg for your wonderful testimony,
I was born into the church and have always believed in this wonderful gospel that was restored here on earth by Joseph smith who is a prophet of God and I do know that the BIble and the Book of Mormon are true because of the confirmation from the Holy Ghost and I do believe that Thomas s Monson is also a true living prophet of God, but most importantly I know that Jesus is the Christ and that he did atone for our sins so that we could be saved and live with our Heavenly Father again
Greg, it always amazes me how quickly the anti-Mormons come out of the woodwork to attack believing Latter-day Saints, and how quick they are to display their ignorance. Just for a quick example: several of your most virulent detractors claimed that Sidney Rigdon wrote or helped to write the Book of Mormon. If they knew much at all about LDS church history and the BofM they’d know that Rigdon did not even meet Joseph Smith until AFTER the BofM was published! Their other criticisms are equally bogus and ignorant of real facts.
Yes, there was a library near Joseph’s home in Palmyra but it would not have done him any good. Most of the strongest evidences of the historicity of the BofM have been discovered AFTER it was published in 1830. Things like computer wordprint analysis that identifies over 20 different authors in the BofM (none of them matching Joseph or Oliver Cowdery or Sidney Rigdon, etc.), the geography of ancient Arabia (including the discovery of an oasis in Yemen where Nephi probably built his ship), discovery of horses in America in BofM times … I could go on and on, but there’s no need. The Book of Mormon is a true record. Anyone who REALLY wants to know should not only read it, but take advantage of the excellent scholarship on the subject found at and/or http://www.fair-mormon.org. I challenge your critics to visit those sites where EVERY objection they’ve listed has been thoroughly researched and refuted with FACTS.
The Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum (BMAF) is holding our annual conference in Salt Lake City on October 18. I’m in charge of it this year and we have some great speakers lined up. More info soon on the BMAF.org website.
Indeed Joseph Smith was 23 when the BofM was published, but he only had a 3rd grade education. His own wife Emma said he could not write a coherent sentence on his own. Mark Twain gave it a cursory look and declared it “chloroform in print”, but a modern (non Mormon) Pulitzer prize winner who took a closer look had a differing opinion:
Daniel Walker (who won a Pulitzer Prize in History for this work) wrote:
“True or not, the Book of Mormon is a powerful epic written on a grand scale with a host of characters, a narrative of human struggle and conflict, of divine intervention, heroic good and atrocious evil, of prophecy, morality and law. Its narrative structure is complex… the dominant themes are Biblical, prophetic, and patriarchal, not democratic or optimistic. It tells a tragic story of a people who, though possessed of the true faith, fail in the end. Yet it does not convey a message of despair, God’s will cannot ultimately be frustrated. The Book of Mormon should rank among the great achievements of American literature, but it has never been accorded the status it deserves, since Mormons deny Joseph Smith’s authorship, and non-Mormons, dismissing the work as a fraud, have been more likely to ridicule than read it.”
Forgive them Greg, for they know not what they speak …
Let’s not forget everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe and do what brings them joy. And other people would do good to leave each other be and respect the different views and paths people have chosen in life. Not everyone thinks the way someone else thinks, knows the things someone else knows, believes the things others believe, nor acts the way another person acts. Remember this and you will go a long way in getting along with people.
I wish people would stop getting hung up on the point of JS’s education. Yes, formal schooling matters; he did not have it and was undeniably uneducated. And the BOM reads exactly like the product of an uneducated young man who was trying to imitate Biblical language. Could an uneducated blah-blah-blah write something like the BOM? Yes! It’s not a work of great literature, people.
Haters gonna hate. As I see it, believers are going to believe and non-believers aren’t. It seems the same information is used as an argument for and an argument against. It’s cyclical and sad that to see so much hostility toward enthusiasm. Contention is real. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. No reason to attack the man for his opinion.
Personally, I enjoyed the read. I am a Mormon and your blog post is circulating amongst the members of my ward. Rightfully so. It’s wonderful to experience a testimony, especially one as strong as yours even as words on a page. I could hear your excitement resonating in my head.
I find that in the church, the more you put in, the more you get out. You don’t just ‘get’ a testimony just like you don’t just ‘fall away,’ not without lack of effort in either case. Nephi 11 says you have to:
1. Hear the gospel
2. Feel the power of the Holy Ghost
3. Have faith in Christ
4. Have a sincere desire to gain a testimony (Ridge, 2009)
Without these actions, others could never experience what we have. And that’s sad. I’d rather be where I am and be called a fool than not be here and miss out on the countless ways this gospel has blessed my life. We joke in my house that even if we are completely wrong about how the eternities (or lack thereof) play out, I spent my life happy surrounded by the worlds finest human beings. I, like Greg and many others, know (as well as I know my own name) that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is true. It is another testament if Jesus Christ. And no amount if picketing will convince me otherwise. I hope you all have something in your life that makes you as happy, charitable, and peaceful as I get to be in our church.
Thank you for this, Greg. This was inspiring and your passion is infectious. Keep it coming.
Dear Greg,
I love that your blog doesn’t attack anyone. It doesn’t tear down anyone else. It simply states your simple faith in a book of scripture that teaches the world to believe in Christ. Christ said it best, “by their fruits ye shall know them”. Yours are good and promote faith in Jesus Christ the Savior of the World. Thanks so much for standing for what you believe. Hold on to your faith and trust that God who knows all things will guide you. God bless and have a wonderful day!
Greg, thank you for your post. It’s really bold of any LDS member to make a post like this because you’re making something so important to you vulnerable for criticism.
For all the negative posts on here –
Personally I’ve spent years researching different facts and theories that claim to prove or disprove the Book of Mormon. At the end of all of this, none of those facts have weakened OR strengthened my testimony of The Book of Mormon or of the gospel. My testimony was founded on a witness from the Holy Ghost, and strengthened as I received witness upon witness of it’s truth from life experiences. Science did not grant me my testimony, and so called science cannot take it away.
Read Guns, Germs and Steel and you will realize that it was impossible for the Nephites to have ever existed. Had the Nephites come from Jerusalem in the 6th BC, they would have had to bring with them the horses and sheep so prominent in the Book of Mormon. If they had done so, they would have brought over the same Old World diseases that killed 80% of the American Indian populations from their 16th C AD encounters with French, English and Spanish explorers and settlers. If the Nephites had ever existed as Jewish settlers in the Americas, the American Indian would have had some resistance to smallpox, and yet Columbus et al. devastated them with one simple exposure.
The horses and sheep you denigrate are called anachronisms that prove the Book of Mormon is a 19th Century work of fiction by men ignorant of American history, just like having a cellphone in a World War I photo would prove that the photo was faked. Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon with a school teacher, Oliver Cowdery, just as Tolkien, Martin, Rowlings, Lewis and Herbert wrote their more elaborate, compelling fantasy works on their own.
The only real reason you believe is that it makes you feel good and your friends and family want you to believe. Don’t denigrate people who do research because it makes you feel bad about your own unresearched convictions.
Thanks for the great testimony, Greg. You’re doing great. I especially like how you haven’t attacked back in the comments. No need to. The Book of Mormon never was on trial. I’m not the least bit bothered by the “evidence” against it, because God has made known to me that the book is true. Call that arrogant if you want, but I call it revelation, and I won’t deny what God has told me.
The Book of Mormon brings people to Christ. If they want to know Christ better, they can read it, sincerely pray about it, and come to a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of it. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, and we respect that.
Like I said, you’re doing great, and you have my support!
Hey Greg, looks like you’ve gotten a little bit of hot feedback on this one. Well I’d like to take my stand with you on this one. You know for me I grew up in the church here in Utah. For a very long time I struggled with the church, mostly the people. It wasn’t until I was 18 that I had a young men’s leader come to my house to trying reactivate me that he challenged me to read the Book of Mormon. I thought him absurd but wasn’t one to back down from a challenge so I read it with an open mind. I found that it changed my life for the better. Like you said there are millions of logical reasons why the Book of Mormon is true. My personal favorite I witnessed a few years ago myself in Mexico at archaeological dig in Yucatan Peninsula. There is a temple that has a painting of a white man dressed in white sitting on the steps of the temple teaching brown skinned people. Like I said recently this was recently discovered. This aside it is nothing compared to the feeling I get when I read the Book of Mormon or when I taught people on my mission about it’s truth and it’s power to save.
I’ve noticed a few comments from other people talking about you saying that if we grew up in a different religion we would believe that religion to be the “true” church. I can honestly say that I have explored many different faiths. I am always willing to hear about other people’s churches. What I have found is there is truth to almost all of them. If a church causes people to want to do better and be better people then it is a good thing and many of them have correct teachings that cause people to grow closer to God. In no way would I want to discredit them in anyway. However, they all claim to be the true church of God. What I have found is this, as far as the authority to act in God’s name the only church that has any claim that God has directly given it to them is the “Mormons”. A fantastic claim as such requires investigation and it all comes back to is the Book of Mormon true. If it’s not then what a sad day for us, there would still be truth on Earth to make us better people, but no one with the authority to effectuate the saving ordinances that Christ gave us during his ministry. Sorry if this went a bit long and if the grammer was bad. Keep the faith
I want to bear my witness that Jesus Christ loves each and everyone of us. I know he showed his ultimate act of love through the atonement, which enables everyone single one of us to have a second chance if we fall astray.Those of you who are going against the church, I ask you to stop for a moment from your persecutions and ponder sincerely about the truthfulness of the BOM and JS. I promise as stated in Moroni 10:4-5, your opinion will change dramatically as you experience the mighty change of heart. This I solemnly bear in the name of Jesus Christ amen.
All of the aspects of Mormonism that are uniquely Mormon have more to do with Doctrine’s and Covenants, Church manuals and manuscripts, and prophets. The portion of the LDS faith based on what is contained in the BOM just don’t seem that significant.The BOM has little to do with knowing how to be a Mormon. The WOW is not in the BOM, the Temple rituals are not in the BOM, Jesus is only mentioned briefly in the BOM.That said, based on the BOM, How do you know which successive prophets after Joseph Smith are true? How do you know which branch of the Church started by Joseph Smith is true? None of them have translated ancient text with mysterious stones but they all claim to believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon. So are they all correct? Are they all true?
Basically, all I am saying is, the BOM is strange book to base your faith on when your faith is much more heavily influenced by prophets and other books and manuscripts.
Greg, thank you for sharing your feelings about the book of Mormon. It takes a lot of courage to that. I don’t know why it’s so hard for some to accept the fact that there is more scripture besides the bible. There were more people living on the earth besides them, and I also believe there is more scriptures (writings of past prophets etc) that haven’t been discovered yet. I think there are ways to argue different facts and things in the book of Mormon and the Bible, that is why it is essential to ask god of the truth. Satan is so embedded in men and womans hearts these days, that the only persons opinion I can trust is gods.
Thank you again for sharing.
While I do think Greg’s arguments for the validity of the Book of Mormon are superficial, most of the arguments here against it are also relatively shallow. We all love (myself included) anecdotal evidence, theories, and anything else that supports what we believe or don’t believe. I lost my testimony a while back and it took me some time to return to my original faith. I was disturbed by the fact that I could not prove the Book of Mormon is true. Part of that conclusion involved many of the items mentioned throughout the comment section. I felt I could not be completely honest while acting on/pushing something I could not prove. After some time without a testimony I did feel that I should scrutinize my doubts. If honesty was my true objective, I needed to be as critical both for and against my faith. I believe anyone who goes through this process will realize just how complicated Joseph Smith and church history really is. There is plenty of room to create doubt but there is also plenty of room to produce faith. I have faith today because (as superficial and “Peter Priesthood” as this might sound) I am happy and have peace in my life when I follow the commandments. I know happiness and peace can be found in a lot of places but for me there is something extremely unique about the peace I have felt in the temple, on my knees, and on other occasions. This was my conclusion but I know many others come to other conclusions. As said before, church history is complicated and I don’t think those who struggle with faith or go other another direction should be automatically accused of sinful behavior or some other opinion disqualifying attribute. Sorry for such a long comment/life story:)
“Here is the bottom line. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the same Church that Christ established while He was on the earth. It’s as simple as that. ”
I completely disagree even LOGICALLY, let alone emotionally.
THAT train of logic ONLY gets you as far as Joseph’s Death. If the Book of Mormon is ONLY a testimony of Smith’s prophetic mantle and NOT Brigham Young’s, then technically you CANNOT use the Book of Mormon to verify the truth of the modern day church. It gets you up until Smith died and technically, now a new test would be needed.
Another issue: The testimonies of EVERY break of LDS-ism I’ve EVER, read, big or small, (Community of Christ, FLDS, etc…) have just as much conviction in their testimony as you do yours.
All of them use the Book of Mormon.
Of course, you will find this to be nonsense in your position, but I’m attempting to point out that no, it’s not just as, “Simple as that.”
I grew up in the LDS church, under my parent’s guidance, I attended church and Young Women activities weekly. As soon as I turned 18, I decided to do what I wanted to to. All of the things my beliefs made me forsake. For ten years, I lived that way, giving into every whim, avoiding church, no calling and guess where it got me, NO WHERE. Lonely and unhappy, with no purpose. It wasn’t until I starting praying and asking for direction in my life that my life moved forward with purpose and hope.
I was lucky enough to avoid any unwanted pregnancy or disease or any addictions during those ten years. I know a lot of people aren’t that lucky. Because of choices they’ve made, they find themselves feeling like they can’t come back to church, they pay for these choices for the rest of their lives, it seems like these people want to bash the church and it’s teachings. Failing to notice that it is by their own choices that they are unhappy and in the state they are in. They become bitter. They want to prove the church wrong because they think it’s so much easier to live without the gospel. And it’s true, it is EASIER. But it’s not fulfilling, and there is not much hope.
For me, the church is true because living the gospel makes my life complete and it can make anyone’s life complete, that’s what is so wonderful about it. The teachings are pure and good. Just think, if everyone in the US, (maybe even the world, i’m not doing that math) gave 10% of their income, there would be no starving people, there would be no need for healthcare. Think, if everyone avoided drugs and alcohol? What if people abstained from sex until marriage? Even better, what if everyone were totally honest?
The church is beautiful and worthwhile and good. And for the unbelievers, don’t worry so much about Joseph Smith, I mean who really knows exactly how it went down. Just appreciate mormonism for the good it does in the world. Don’t focus on that one mormon you know who screwed you over, focus on the teachings of the church and what it is about. You will soon find that you are happy there are mormons in the world and there really is no reason to prove them wrong.
My daughter brought me to this blog. I’m not big on controversy, but after reading all these desenters have to offer, I’d just like to thank Greg! I’ve been LDS for 35 years…active & inactive, but I have never doubted the truth of the Gospel as given by the BoM. Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, let me say this, Christ taught love an tolerance. His heart and arms were open to all. He gave only one condition…belief in Him! Although it is hard to love those who disapprove,taunt, or even harass, Christ did. I pray that at the time of final judgement, we will meet on the common ground of our love for He that has scarficed so much!
One other thing: You cannot both believe that Joseph Smith was uneducated and had enough passion and wisdom to read the bible AT AGE 14!
How many kids these days can read LET ALONE COMPREHEND the Bible at that age?
Joseph Smith said not only he did he read it, but he read a LOT of it, and James 1:5, a passage that uses the word, “upbraideth”, hit him with such power that it moved him to decisive action.
So don’t tell me the kid didn’t have the ability, 7 years later, to be smart enough to channel/write the Book of Mormon. The kid was a genius at 14, reading the Bible and comprehending it in ways no 14 year old of today could. Maybe he didn’t know how to spell well, but he knew what words MEANT and how to use them in stories and in real life. He was witty, a charmer, and a wordSmith. Pun intended.
I know because I have the same talent. 😉
This has been an interesting read for me. I appreciate your posting Greg simply because of the breadth of dialogue it created. What I noticed more than anything was a lot of people making value judgments. On the anti Mormon side they called opinions facts and used the facts to condemn. On the Mormon side they called opinions revelations and used revelation to condemn. My own opinion is that truth is broad and infinitely deep and that no person has such a strangle hold on it to justify judgments in either direction with such certainty. There is always more to learn both about facts and spirituality, whatever your preference.
First of all, 11th article of faith states: “We claim the privilege of worshipping almighty god, according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege, let the worship how where or what they may. “. For some of those earlier posts, we are not telling you what to believe, we are just putting our beliefs out there. You all have the privilege to worship how, where, or what you may. Now I believe in this church with all my heart. I do not know everything about it, and you don’t need to. The feeling I get while reading the BOM, attending church, participating in service, or things pleasing to my heavenly father withstands any feeling I have ever had before! I know that my heavenly father created me and that I, we, are all of his special children with a great purpose. I know that all these teachings of Joseph smith are real, and true because they came straight from god and the holy spirit. For all those who post against this blog, please read the Book Of Mormon once again, and take upon yourself Moroni’s promise in Moroni 10:4-5. You may not get an answer right away but you will receive one. I promise 🙂 After you have done this, then post your responses here. Greg I admire you for standing up for your beliefs and letting them known to the world in the last days. You sure have thick skin and I am thankful there are people like you who will do this. I’m sure you are blessed so abundantly by your works. Thank you! 🙂
Greg,
I have a sincere question and request for you about your testimony that the book of mormon is true.
I personally have read the book of mormon dozens of times. Just in the last 3 years I have studied it cover to cover 6 times.
I would like to challenge you to draw out the plan of salvation that is taught in the book of mormon consistantly for 1,000 years. Please only use scriptures from the book of mormon and please don’t project what you think it should say. Just take the book of mormon at face value and take the plan of salvation for what it says.
Once you have done that, please read D&C 19 and summarize the implication of what God is saying in this revelation and in context of what you just explained as the plan of salvation in the book of mormon.
I would love to hear how this exercise of studying the book of mormon and modern revelation fit into your testimony that the book of mormon is true.
I would be happy to have an exchange with you off-line via e-mail.
But to be clear, as a true believing mormon my testimony of “true” did not include what you will find if you sincerely go through this exercise of study.
Best wishes.
Thank you Greg! I love your blog! It’s a shame so many people are fired up trying to prove you and the Book Of Mormon wrong. Bottom line for me is this church makes me happy! It makes me Christlike, accepting of others, service oriented, and driven to better myself day by day. Do I think all churches have that same teaching? Yes! And if I grew up in the Middle East maybe I would’ve been Muslim. But I know this church is true FOR ME, and it makes the most sense for me too.b And that’s all that matters.
Your 10 points appear to just be arguments from ignorance. The inability to see other causes for your 10 points doesn’t mean your chosen cause is correct.
Cognitive Biases cloud all of our thinking. You want the Book to be true, so you find the 10 points compelling. However they are historically inaccurate or misleading and really only bolster the opinions of those who WANT to believe the BoM is “True”.
Once a person who believes in the Mormon religion actually recognizes the possibility that it could be wrong, the flaws become very apparent.
You might find this interesting: Emma Smith was not permitted to view the plates, but she did sneak a feel of them while they were stored in their home wrapped in cloth. Her description of what she felt doesn’t match the official description. This is recorded in “No Man Knows My History” and comes from contemporary source accounts.
I believe the Book of Mormon to be true independently of scientific research because I also believe in a higher power, God. I believe we are spiritual beings and that spiritual experiences are even greater evidence than empirical evidence.
That being said, those speaking against the Book of Mormon are simply repeating the anti-mormon talking points of yester-year. There are plenty of evidences in the Americas that attest to ancient civilizations like the Nephites and Lamanites. B.H. Roberts wrote his commentary without the understanding that the Book of Mormon peoples were one of many peoples in the Americas. Horses, goats, ‘middle-eastern’ plants, and even elephants have been discovered to have been in ancient america long before the Europeans arrived. Even the Chinese were here thousands of years before Columbus. (https://www.facebook.com/MormonEvidence)
The truth is that people look for reasons to see the Book of Mormon as false. They find some small thing and publish their ideas and turn many away from the truth. Over time, new evidences come forth debunking the anti literature and the antis go searching for a new story. All the while, those claiming the veracity of the Book of Mormon are proven right over and over again without changing their story.
Those that claim to be intellectuals fool many. They cite important sounding sources, but fail to realize that the authorities have disregarded many strong evidences for the Book of Mormon because it doesn’t fit their ‘known’ historical narrative. The so-called intellectuals cook the books more than they claim religious people do.
I stand with those that have a spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon. I know it to be true. If you wish to search out geological and anthropological evidence, go for it. Have fun doing it. But always do it with a spiritual foundation of the veracity of the Book of Mormon.
For those who want to use Solomon Spaulding as a way to disprove the Book of Mormon… the book that you claim Joseph Smith used to create the Book of Mormon does not exist. It may have never existed. All you have to go off of that ever existed at all is the word of Spaulding’s brother.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Spalding
In 1927, Professor Azariah S. Root, who had headed the library at Oberlin College, wrote a letter regarding the origins of the Spalding Manuscript and how it relates to the Book of Mormon. In the letter he states, “It [the Spaulding Manuscript] seems pretty clearly not to have been the manuscript from which the Book of Mormon was written”.[2]
I read the Book of Mormon for the first time a few years ago. I felt closer to the Savior than any other time in my life. It was as if the light from the pages entered into my very being. As my spirit feasted on the words, I gained momentum and strength.
alma 32:35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good;
I gained the strength to leave my nets and follow Him. Once you gain the spiritual witness for yourself, its undeniable. The fruits that have come because of that one decision to read the Book of Mormon have been incredible, most notably the change within my own heart.
Hi, Greg.
I remember when I used to feel so passionately about the church and The Book of Mormon. I respect your belief just as I respect many of my family, friends, and all religions or even lack thereof. People feel passionately about things. That’s one of those things that makes people human. I love my Mormon friends and family. They are such amazingly good people, and I’m glad I have them in my life.
Often, anger comes from a place of pain. I think that most of those commenting are doing so because they want to be understood. Many have been alienated or ostracized from their Mormon community, and it hurts. Hopefully, when you read their comments, you might be able to have some compassion towards them. I appreciate how completely respectful you have been in your responses. Too often, on either side, people resort to name calling and become disrespectful. Often when presented with anything that may be perceived as negative, any member will immediately discount what is being said as “anti-mormon.” Most people that have left are just like you….trying to be faithful, have served missions, and are trying their best to do what is right in life.
I personally don’t hold the truth that the Mormon church is the one true church as I was brought up to believe any longer. My little family has been mostly inactive for the past six years. I would never, not in a million years have seen myself in this position any time prior to that. I had what I believed to be a strong testimony. I wanted to go on a mission. My husband served his mission and we both were considered strong members of the church. I truly believed that the gospel was the main key to my happiness in life, and could not see my life without it.
We didn’t leave the church because we were offended. We didn’t leave because we didn’t care. We didn’t leave because we stopped going to the temple, reading scriptures, praying, or because we were “sinning,” or because we wanted to sin. We weren’t reviewing “anti-mormon” literature. Our decision to leave was incredibly difficult and extremely painful. It was mostly based on what we learned from real church history, among other things. My perceptions of truth were flipped upside down, and my husband and I often refer to it as our “Truman Show” moment. Waking up and feeling like your life has been fabricated in many ways is not an easy pill to swallow. To have a belief in something that you clung to so passionately unravel and crumble before your eyes is devastating. It took a lot of time, a whole lot of prayer, and a whole lot of talking to arrive at this decision.
Most people who leave the church are afraid to talk about it, mostly for fear of judgment. It often seems like most members in the church immediately believe something is drastically wrong with you, and that you’re obviously not doing the right things in your life. I have seen so much heartache among many of my friends and family members over this, and it tends to add to the pile of guilt and sadness that you feel. What am I not doing right? Maybe they’re right….maybe I could be doing better. There’s obviously something wrong with me. WHY am I like this? Finally, I came to the shaky conclusion that, you know what, world? I try to be a really good person. I try to be a good mom. I’m trying to do what’s right. It takes SO much courage to stand up for yourself and do what you believe is right, regardless of what everyone may think of you. To me, that is true integrity. And I really want to be a person of integrity.
Your truth may be different from my truth, and that’s fine, but please don’t discount others as you especially did in your previous blog “You Should Not Leave Mormonism.” THAT is what makes people come back and haunt your comment thread. You are immediately discounting people’s deepest feelings, and thus equally guilty of cruelty, although you may not realize it or intend to do so.
I honestly don’t understand why people have to bash what others believe? That is probably one of the most un Christ like things to do, and I’m sure our Heavenly Father doesn’t approve in bringing others down. We are all brothers and sisters so we should respect what others believe instead of tearing them down. After all loving our neighbor is what Christ says is the one of the greatest commandments and I don’t see much love on bashing what people believe! What would Jesus do? haha!
I remember a study that I did once on Aztec civilization. I am a member of the LDS Church and I know that Christ came to the Americas. How do I know this? 1) I received that testimony by the Spirit of God and 2) as I did my research on the Aztecs, one thing stood out to me. They believed that Cortes was a God who was going to RETURN to their people. They thought so because the fact that he had white skin. How could the Aztecs wait for a white God to RETURN if He never came once? Even the Aztecs testified of Christ’s visit to the Americas.
In Joseph’s day, people believed in magic. Having visions was not that uncommon. Joseph’s family also believed in magic and the power of seer stones. Oliver Cowdery used a divining rod. People believed in “second sight” where people would see things as a vision in their mind. Scrying was a type of second sight, a method of divination that allowed one to look into an object and see the unseen. Scrying is also called “seeing” or “peeping.” Joseph was a scryer and his associates believed in it so strongly that they tried to dig for treasure that he said he saw—always to no avail. People practice scrying today. (see our entry on scrying for more information)
Imagine what would happen if the current prophet of the Church said he was a scryer, and that he looked in a crystal ball or put his face in a hat looking at a stone to receive revelation for the Church. Members would find this troubling, let alone how it would affect the missionary work. However, if it was acceptable for the founding prophet of Mormonism to receive revelations through scrying, why doesn’t the current prophet use Joseph Smith’s very stone (currently in the Church’s vaults) to receive revelation today?
Time-line and Joseph’s behavior
Joseph claims that in 1820 he saw God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. In 1822, Joseph finds a peepstone and begins his career as a treasure seeker using that peepstone. In 1823 he claims that he is visited by an angel named Moroni and told about some gold plates. Joseph is visited by that angel once a year until 1827. During this time period Joseph tries to get the plates, but is told he can’t have them yet. He is also actively engaged in treasure seeking in which some of the adventures end with Joseph claiming that the treasure is near at hand, but that it slips out of reach so no one else can see it, let alone get to it. In 1826 he is taken to court for activities related to his peepstone treasure-hunting. In 1827 he says he receives the gold plates and the Nephite Interpreters from the angel and is told that people are not allowed to see them. The plates and interpreters are taken away, then returned. By 1829 he is finished with the Book of Mormon and the plates and Interpreters are returned to the angel. 11 witnesses claim they see the plates, but then many of them admit they didn’t see them with their natural eyes. This timeline of events, if accurate, casts doubt on Joseph’s motives and methods for producing the Book of Mormon and starting the LDS Church. In fact, it seems as if the gold plates and interpreters are just an extension of Joesph’s treasure-hunting and peepstones.
The name “Urim and Thummim” is deceptive, as it was never referred to as such until long after the Book of Mormon was published. If W.W. Phelps never suggested in 1833 that perhaps the seer stones were the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament, then they would not be referred to as such today. The term was never used by Joseph or anyone else until 1833. Historical accounts were rewritten to make it appear that from the moment Moroni appeared the interpreters were referred to as the Urim and Thummim, and then Joseph’s peepstone was referred to as Urim and Thummim. How much less credible would it be if instead of the biblical sounding “Urim and Thummim”, the translating object was referred to as “the peepstone Joseph found while digging a well?”
Plates not used
The fact that the plates were not used in the translation process is especially problematic. Even if they were in the room uncovered, Joseph couldn’t see them with his face buried in a hat. According to the witnesses, the plates were always covered in a cloth or not even in the room when the translation was taking place. So why bother having prophets painstakingly record their actions on golden plates for 1000+ years when they weren’t even used in the translation? If God simply revealed the writings from the plates to Joseph through a stone, why have the plates at all? God or Moroni could have simply revealed the history of the earliest Americans without the worry of protecting the plates that Joseph found. Apologists claim that the “proof” of the Book of Mormon is found in the reading of the book and gaining a spiritual testimony of it. No plates or witnesses are needed for such reading and spiritual confirmation.
A General Authority believes seer stones are of Satan
This comes from Apostle Bruce R. McConkie in his book Mormon Doctrine under peepstones:
In imitation of the true order of heaven where seers receive revelation from God through the Urim and Thummim, the devil gives revelations to some of his followers through peepstones or crystal balls.
Does this mean that McConkie thought Joseph’s peepstone use for treasure-hunting was from the Devil? How about when Joseph used that same peepstone for translating the Book of Mormon?
Did the seer stone have any special ability?
Was the seer stone just a stone or did it indeed have special ability to translate ancient writings? If it had special abilities, how is that possible since Joseph found the stone some 24 feet underground on Willard & Mason Chase’s property while he and Hyrum were digging a well for Mr. Chase? He was not given the stone by the angel nor was it in the stone box with the plates. He had the stone years before the Book of Mormon translation commenced. Also this is the very stone he used in his failed attempts to find treasure with. Plus since the Church still has this stone it could be examined for unique properties or even used by the current prophets as seering device but it apparently just sits in the vault like an ordinary stone.
If it did not have special abilities and Joseph just used this stone to concentrate with, then why was Joseph unable to translate when Martin Harris swapped stones in order to test Joseph?
There is no faithful answer to this question that does not bring up serious problems in regard to the seer stone method of translating the Book of Mormon that Joseph used.
Why not tell the members openly?
The Church has not plainly taught the truth to its members, let alone investigators of the church. The hierarchy of the church knows the translation took place with a stone in a hat, as evidenced by Russell M. Nelson’s talk to the mission presidents. Even devout members and missionaries who know how the translation occurred, will almost always omit this detail and even lie to prospective members as they will more easily believe the commonly-told story instead of the actual method. This is unethical.
Why doesn’t the church be honest when teaching the method to investigators or even its own members?
The short answer of course is that it would make the whole story sound unbelievable. Very few people in the 21st Century would likely join the church if the missionaries plainly taught that Joseph put his face in a hat with a common stone in it and translated the Book of Mormon when the plates were either covered so no one, including Joseph could see them or that the plates were hidden in the woods when he translated them. But that doesn’t make it right to deceive innocent truthseekers.
Now that you’ve established the truth of the Book of Mormon, when will the Church bring itself in line with its precepts? Why does the book say nothing about temple ordinances? Why does the book not even use the word “priesthood” except in reference to the days before Christ’s ministry? Why do we recite the sacramental prayers word for word as found in Moroni, but completely ignore the two preceding chapters, where Moroni tells us the proper way to ordain priests, teachers, and give the Holy Ghost? Why does it say we shouldn’t baptize little children, when that is exactly what we do? Why does it say those who are not under the law or who are not under condemnation need no baptism, that it is actually a mockery before God, yet we engage in baptisms for the dead? Many of whom died without law. Why does the doctrine of Christ found in 3 Nephi say that anything more or less than belief in Christ and baptism to inherit the kingdom of God is not of Him?
The Book of Mormon is the greatest anti-Mormon work ever produced.
Um, instead of wasting my breath with someone who probably isn’t willing to listen I will say this – each question you asked has a simple answer. Christ taught in parables, and it drove people nuts because many could not understand what he was talking about. The BOM speaks heavily of temple ordinances, but unless one is being taught by the Spirit as they study they wouldn’t catch that. Milk before meat. Alma has a chapter that heavily discusses the Priesthood, I’ll let you find it. It might be good to start with the basic principles and as you learn line upon line, precept upon precept, then you might have more “mysteries” revealed to you. Be humble and prayerful first, and be willing to dedicate many many hours and days of your life in this search for truth. But the good news is that there are many people out there who have followed this road and found it quite enlightening. I know I have just scratched the surface of the knowledge contained within the works of God. I am sad at myself for not treasuring the works (scriptures) more and studying them more intimately.
@jman, I can’t tell for certain what it is you believe in. You say “we” which implies that you are involved, but the very questions you pose are, well, questioning doctrine. Much like many of the unanswered questions in and out of the Book of Mormon (life), I suspect there’s good reason the Lord chose to not have such included (temple ordinances)–particularly against the fact that much of temple-related matters are not written; yet that attempt of belittling validity in any sense is groundless since *we* believe (stay with me) “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” through *living* prophets and apostles.
I’ll defer to the aforementioned–at least in part–for the “priesthood” piece. As for the sacramental prayers and priesthood ordinations, I’m perplexed why that you would be discomforted by that. Living prophets and apostles has sought divine counsel and direction and these are the directives. Once again, this is a *living* church; led by Christ through living prophets and apostles. Surely you mustn’t refute the fact that God optimizes what *He* wishes, according to His desires, and we are free to follow or disagree.
Baptize little children? Do expound on this one. To set the record straight the minimum age for baptism is eight years old. This is the age that the *Lord* has determined to be an appropriate age for a child to choose. Children? Yes. But by golly, surely you understand that even from a young age we’re all challenged to stretch ourselves, to grow in Christ, and to seize opportunities to come closer to Him. Even a child growing up outside the gospel *ought* to live under such circumstances. Now, the baptisms for the dead and mockery. Interesting take on that, and I’ll admit the wording does make for some confusion. But alas! Thank goodness for all our leaders since the beginning of time who have and always will help us interpret and practice these scriptures appropriately. I guess I should even throw in that most who have written therein have some sort of disclaimer *if* they are mistaken to not be judged in what they say, which takes me right back to ongoing, living, constant assurance that we can lean on the Spirit and our leaders of today and the past. I would suggest stepping back and looking from a whole about the entire plan of God. Surely that loaded question doesn’t quite fit with the whole scheme of things, and is due some proper guidance by the Spirit and our leaders. I’d invite you to think on, perhaps, a more secular example surrounding your last point of “anything more or less”: Clearly, astronauts didn’t make their way to the moon using their own contrived trajectories; no, they had to align with fixed (eternal) principles and obey them. Or rather, how about the two great commandments? If there are only two, then I guess that’s easy. Love God and love your neighbor. I could write a trail of all that’s comprised of actually “loving” God (i.e. “if ye love me, keep me commandments”). My point is there is much involved with “[believing] in Christ”. I know I am beating a dead horse, but I’ll say it again, this is a living Church and every *true piece* to date that has been revealed, shared, and taught–whether by ancient or modern scripture–is an integral part of the whole. He who truly searches the scriptures will surely see how they testify of Christ (see John 5:39). He will also see how interactive and cross-supportive the scriptures are. If some see not, it will be “because they sought it not by faith” (Rom. 9:32), but instead stared uncomprehendingly with slit-eyed skepticism. Said Jesus to the unseeing: “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. “But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” (John 5:46–47). Those who understood and believed not that which Moses wrote did not, in effect, believe this which Jesus spoke.
Lastly, to Greg’s point (and really within the Book of Mormon). If one of these associated pieces is true, then the rest of it is. Period. It’s all or nothing. Either Joseph saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, or he didn’t. Either the Book of Mormon is indeed an ancient scripture translating by an amazing young man called of Good, or it isn’t. Either the way in which the Church practices baptism (age and ordination) is the correct way, or it isn’t. A full understanding is impossible; we simply have to trust in what the Lord has told us. We claim these things are true and invite all to know for themselves, with full confidence that if they do so with a pure intent and heart, they’ll know; no doubt. It’s a promise. But it’s not our promise, originally. I’d invite you to reconsider your reservations and pray you haven’t “left” the Church. Often times people use intellectual reservations about the gospel to cover their behavioral lapses. Sadly, people who do leave the Church, can’t leave it alone either.
All of your questions are answered when you understand the purpose of the book. Which is to bring Jew and Gentile unto Christ and to remind the Lamanites they are of the house of Israel and to testify that Jesus is the Christ. The Book of Mormon was the BEGINNING of the restoration, not the end.
Those who need to disbelieve the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, are free to do so. It is interesting that they are so motivated to try to push their version of the way things are on others who are happy in their beliefs.
I’ve dug deep into the nay-sayers material, and have been shaken a few times, until I parsed it carefully and found the flaws in their carefully presented materials. Most of it falls apart on even the most cursory examination, such as the supposed Spaulding manuscript connection. I can say that it’s really difficult, even impossible to prove something by looking at the evidence provided by the foes. Usually deep examination of negative material leads to doubt.
So many of the previously controversial aspects of the Book of Mormon used by it’s opponents as ‘proofs’ that it could not be true have fallen by the wayside – cement, tribal customs including judges, white skinned people in the Americas, metallurgy, metal plates containing writing, and more.
I have found plenty to recommend physically that the Book of Mormon could be true, further, there are things mentioned that I have not found hard proof of.
I *KNOW* the Book of Mormon is true. The undeniable witness of the Holy Spirit lit my soul from head to foot with fire when I asked humbly needing a true answer after weeks of study and prayer. I have a divine witness that I cannot deny, on jeopardy of my immortal soul.
WOW, many many people sharing what they don’t believe. If your whole belief system is based on a negative belief where is that going to get you? To those of you that love to tear down the beliefs of others it would be more productive to leave an actual belief and how that has led to you wanting to tear down the beliefs of others.
Mike
Thank you for your comment Jeff as well as many others who have come to the defense of the Book of Mormon. It’s faith confirming to me when so much confusion comes from the nay sayers who have posted. Makes me wonder why people would want to ruin people’s happiness. If Mormons are happy in their faith and for the most part aren’t hurting anyone (I get the Utah politics comment and kind of agree) then why would you want to destroy someone’s faith. I find it ironic that the same way the look at people who choose (yes it’s a choice) believe in rationalizing our thoughts and feelings and logic to fit our belief, is the same way we look at them, rationalizing their thought and feelings and logic to not believe.
I’ve read about the first 50 comments or so on this, mostly those from detractors. I’m really curious about the motives of those that want to disprove the Book of Mormon. Maybe one of you could help me understand what you are trying to accomplish. If you believe in God and Christ, why try to destroy a book that has brought happiness to people’s lives and encouraged them to do good works and follow Christ’s teachings? If it is pure fiction and yet produces good works, what does it matter to you? Most Christians claim that all you have to do to be saved is to believe in Christ and accept him to be saved. If the BOM is fake, Mormons are still worshiping and accepting the same Christ as the other Christians. What do you get out of wrecking the book?
If you don’t believe in any supreme being, then what does it matter if the BOM is fake? We all are just going to die and turn to dust anyways.
So many people put so much work and effort into attacking Mormonism, but WHY?? Mormons arent blowing up buildings or calling for genocide. Seriously, what do you get out of it?
Christians must live by faith alone, and this faith lacks proof. Although there is some, even the Bible lacks sufficient archeological evidence to back up its claims and yet people are more willing to accept it as an inspired, holy book containing the Word of God. “Doubting Thomas,” needed to see the nail marks in Christ’s hands as proof that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead. Christ said, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” John 20:29.
As most people are, rational beings we can all exercise the ability to reason. I do believe in GOD, I also believe that reason is something that is given to all human beings…by a wise and Heavenly Father. I have been given a very analytical mind, which requires me to investigate and/or to inquire about all aspects of a subject before making a decision or conclusion. Therefore, if I have any questions, they must all be researched carefully and effectively answered before a decision can be made. Now…we can search the internet, we can search books in any library…most of which have been written by man (i.e. not inspired of God). In order to prove if a book is “inspired” one must inquire from the only source qualified to answer that question…and that would be GOD Himself. And for those who would say that asking questions shows lack of faith, I believe questions primarily show interest, not doubt, but a thirst for knowledge (or truth). “The fool wonders; the wise man asks.” Benjamin Disraeli. For the world has this ugly view that if you are a Christian and believe in God, you must be foolish, for only a fool believes in fairytales. Critics often cite that there is much in Christian dogma that may be described as senseless and foolish. However, I think that those who are quick to assume this are casting incorrect and unfair assessments, as I have found those who are deeply spiritual in nature to be very reasonable and intelligent individuals. For I believe that all truly intelligent people inquire of God and seek His guidance in all things. I continue to ask of The Lord and the Spirit testifies of the truth in all things. If you approach the Book of Mormon, or the Bible…with a skeptical mind, set not to read it, set not to ask of God…you will not gain a testimony, how can you?
I am the kind of person who does not accept at “face value” information that is given to me without confirming its validity for myself via the Holy Spirit. I do not shy away from difficult questions, in fact, it would seem that I cannot leave well enough alone. I feel strongly that reason sublimates the differences that arise among men of many faiths, but those faiths are doomed to destroy one another that forgo reason. Let me explain, when people discover the design of the universe, they likewise begin a “spiritual awakening” process based on simple reason. By examining the apparent design of the created world they deduct that a Grand Designer must exist. “Reason,” said Thomas Aquinas, “is the handmaid of faith.” In other words, our reasonable deductions about the design of the universe, or history, and of morality can bring non-believers to the point of seeing their need for Christ and placing their faith in Him.
Did God save a remnant? Did God save Lehi’s family as the Book of Mormon records? Familiar with the Biblical account of Noah, God destroyed the world with a flood, yet He preserved a righteous branch. Starting over, Noah’s descendents began to multiply, eventually the people resisted God’s mandate to “fill the earth,” and God scattered the people (confusion of languages at Babel Gen. 11:1-9). Through the righteousness of Abraham, God established an everlasting covenant that Abraham’s seed would multiply and flourish forever. From the Biblical account, we know that God destroyed Jerusalem. This work of dispersion was foreseen by the early prophets as an ordained result of their increasing wickedness. Israel was scattered because she apostatized; broke the Ten Commandments; rejected the prophets; forsook the covenant; and she gave heed to false ministers and joined false churches. God always keeps the covenants and promises that He makes to us, we however are not to be trusted. Knowing this truth about God…He would not cast His people away to suffer without preserving a righteous branch. History has a tendency to repeat itself and it is my experience that when God “scatters” His people, He always equips them with the message of His grace and the power of His Spirit. Many prophets came among the people of Jerusalem prior to its downfall, these included- Jeremiah, Nahum, Habakkah, and Zephanial and even though not all the prophets are named in the Old Testament…doesn’t mean that there were not others, as we can interpret the word “many” to mean the nameless…so why not “Lehi”? It is Lehi’s testimony that he was Jewish, descended from the house of Joseph. All Jewish males are required to trace their lineage…it is a must. These prophets all pronounced that Jerusalem and its Temple were doomed for destruction. But the declaration that God would turn against His chosen people and allow His Sacred Temple and His Holy City to be destroyed was considered (at least at this time)…an outrage. To the incensed priests and princes the prophecy was traitorous and bordered on blasphemy. Jeremiah’s arrest and imprisonment were ordered. Why is it so difficult to believe that Lehi may have escaped a similiar fate? God does often preserve righteous branches…why not Lehi’s family? The Book of Mormon records that Lehi left Jerusalem in c. 597 B.C. and he spent 8 years in the wilderness (590 B.C.), one year building a ship (589 B.C.), two years at sea (587 B.C.) and his arrival on the American continent in 586 B.C. which is the year the Jewish nation was exiled to Babylon and the first Temple was destroyed exactly how it was predicted by the prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and perhaps…Lehi.
To Jacob (son of Isaac/son of Abraham) “Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Gen. 28:14. We see from this scripture that Jacob’s seed will be scattered to the “four corners of the EARTH” and thus I doubt that this prophecy meant only the European continents. Gen. 49:22 “Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a WELL; His branches run over the wall.” The wall could be referring to the fact that when the first Temple was destroyed, so was its wall, and/or it could be referring to the wall surround Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 A.D. that ultimately “scattered” the people of Israel and made it necessary for God to preserve a righteous branch in order to keep His promise to Abraham. However, with the added reference to water (WELL)…it could also be interpreted to mean that Joseph’s offspring extend across the SEA (perhaps to this continent?)…the WALL…being another continent (a new land). Jesus did promise to visit “other sheep.” And Jesus did promise to return to the ENTIRE WORLD. I believe that The Lord does indeed know all things from the beginning; wherefore, He prepares a way to accomplish all His works among the children of men; for I know with certainty that God hath all power unto fulfilling of all His Words.
When my grandfather was sick and dieing in hospital…there was a painting on his wall of a stream. My grandfather claimed that he saw Jesus cross the stream and hold out his hand in invitation to join Him. Shortly afterwards, he died. Was my grandfather telling lies? If so…to what purpose? Many people argue that Joseph Smith could not have possibly seen God, they cite JOhn 1:18- “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.” God is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. In fact, The Lord wears light as a garment, and His GLORY exceeds the brilliance of the sun many fold and His Glory is too bright for our mortal eyes to handle. Yet the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden…Adam “walked and saw God face to face. In Deut. 34:10- Moses, whom The Lord knew face to face; Isaiah 6:5- “mine eyes have seen The Lord.” In my study of history, I know that my God intervenes in the lives of men and nations and that through Him many are divinely led, directed, and protected- so why not a 14-year old farm boy such as Joseph Smith? The prophet Ezekiel actually saw the GLORY of God and he lived to tell about it! Read Ezekiel 1:1-28- In verse one, Ezekiel says that “the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.” In verse three, “The word of The Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest…and the hand of The Lord was there upon him.” Verse four, “And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst, thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.” Ezekiel did not see “a man” like Joseph Smith described, but instead, his vision consisted of the likeness of four living creatures- “their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps…and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightening.” And finally in verse 28, Ezekiel says, “This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of The Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.” In chapter 2…Ezekiel is called to be a prophet and to “take the Word of The Lord to Israel.” So directly after his miraculous encounter…Ezekiel was called to be a prophet. Why then is it so difficult to believe that Joseph Smith also had a “miraculous encounter” of his own…and that he was not also called of God? Real prophets do not volunteer…they are chosen by God. Would anyone willingly choose a life of ridicule if he had not been called? And if so, for what purpose? To deceive…I suppose, but to what gain? And if Joseph Smith is not a prophet…then why did he point the way to Christ? One of the most evident aspects of God’s call is the way He creates people with unique skills and abilities that fit them for specific purposes. When a prophet of God is called it affects everything about their life after the encounter–education, career, family, identity, faith, relationships, and even one’s outlook for the future. Many critics doubt Joseph Smith’s claims to have encountered God and that he was a prophet, and yet he did not prosper (at least financially) by bringing forth the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was killed because he believed that God had visited the American continent and that the Book of Mormon is the account of a remnant people who left Jerusalem and came to this continent by direction of God. Joseph Smith, whether you accept that he was a prophet or not, lived and died for the cause of what he believed. He stood by his convictions and stayed strong in his own testimony of Christ, and with great courage, never wavering even in the face of great violence, endured to the end of his life. Many people misunderstood Joseph Smith, some even intentionally, but Ralph Waldo Emerson asks, “Is it bad then to be misunderstood? Pythagorus was misunderstood, and Socrates, and JESUS, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” The facts cannot be argued…the prophets in the Bible led difficult lives, they had messages to deliver from God and the people mocked them and sought to kill them and many were killed.
As for the arguement as to whether Joseph Smith was “an uneducated farm boy”…whether he would be capable/not capable to writing an inspired book, whether he had help. He may have had help…but reading the Book of Mormon, and enquiring of The Lord will surely bring you to an answer. Personally, I love the Pearl of Great Price…and for me, the excerpts from the works and days of Enoch supply many LD Saints with the most valuable control yet on the bonafides of the “prophet” Joseph Smith. Joseph did not translate the Pearl of Great Price using any known script, the whole thing, document and translation was given to him and Oliver Cowdery by “revelation” when they inquired of God (using the Urim and Thummim) This was not the whole book of Enoch, but only a few extracts that became known as the books of Abraham and Moses. The Book of Enoch, an apocryphal production, now first translated from the Ethopic Manuscripts in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, 1821. The book had 214 pages, and a 48 page introduction, plus footnotes. Revisions in English were made in 1833, 1838, and 1842. The Book of Enoch (also known as 1 Enoch) is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. It is not currently regarded as part of the Canon of Scripture as used by Jews, apart from the Beta Israel canon, nor by any Christian group, apart from the Ethopian Orthodox Church and Eritrean Orthodox Church canon. LDS know this work as “pseudepigrapha” and means “non-canonical writings,” the books of ENOCH are not currently accepted as “scripture.” A short section of 1 Enoch (1Enoch 1:9) is quoted in the New Testament (letter to Jude 1:14-15). It is argued by religious scholars that ALL the writers of the New Testament were familiar with the book of Enoch and were influenced by it in thought and diction.
But the only Book of Enoch available to anyone before 1830, was Laurence’s (Archbishop Richard Laurence of Cashel in Ireland) translation of 1821. “After 1821 no translation was available before 1833, when Joseph Smith’s Pearl of Great Price was already 3 years old! 1830 was a busy year for Joseph Smith, founding the Church, the publication of the Book of Mormon, the sending of missionaries, and much coming and going under persecution and pressure. That would leave very little time for “research” of a 214 page “fabled” book that was originally largely suppressed and ignored…circulating only in small numbers available in Europe and England. In 1882 the first and only translation of the Ethopian Enoch was published and appeared in America. Thomas Jefferson (President), had a large collection of books (library), careful concern was made for the latest and best information to be at his disposal, right up until 1826…if one expected to find a copy of Laurence’s 1821 Enoch…anywhere in America, it would have been in Jefferson’s library, but it was not. And even if it was there…I doubt Joseph Smith had access to the President’s library. Therefore, we can conclude that Joseph Smith could not have “copied” the books of “Abraham or Moses” from this (Enoch) publication, but that they were revealed to him by God. We must also note, that the Dead Sea Scrolls, which corroborate the other Enoch literature were not found until between 1947-1956. Moses 6:40- “And there came a man unto him, whose name was Mahijah, and said to him: Tell us plainly who thou art and from whence thou comest?” In this translation by Joseph Smith, only the earliest Enoch texts mention this man…who calls the people to repent, referring them to the Book of Remembrance, and telling them of the plan of salvation. Who is this man? He is the grandfather of Enoch! And I ask you how Joseph Smith would know this RARE DETAIL if not revealed by the Holy Spirit? Based on what I know about the Pearl of Great Price and that it would appear that Joseph Smith is telling the truth about its’ revelation…then I find it difficult not to believe that the Book of Mormon is also another testament of Jesus Christ. It certainly takes nothing away from its companion- The Bible. In fact, it adds more insight. I do not require “proof” that the Book of Mormon is an inspired Word of God as I have those assurances from God.
I am just an 18 year old Young Man, who probably does not have of the education, or excperiance as most who have comment, but I have felt the need to say a few words. I am not here contend with any of you, and I do not hope to presuade you one way or another, all I want to do is say what I know and belive to be right. I am a member of The church of Jesue Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I have been my whole life, although there was a time when I did’t belive that it was true. So I went about reading articals of what people said were wrong about the church. I belived alot of it, and started to doubt my faith. Then, someone said something to me that I will never forget. They said, If Joseph Smith had in fact made it all up why then didn’t he just say so. I mean think about it. Wouldn’t it have been easier for him to say that he made it all up then for him to be tared and feathed, thrown in jail multiple times, see his wife go through the lose of her children, and ultmitly be shot by an angry mob? I mean if it was all a hoaxs then why didn’t he, it is because it is not a hoaxs, he did in fact see Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and he would have rather suffed pain, sorrow and death than denie God.
I have read the Book of Mormon, the very book that everyone seams to contend over, and I can say with out doubt that it is true, I have been blessed because of it and this Gospel. I know that this Gospel is Christ Gospel and that there is a living prophet on the eath to day namly Thomas S. Monson. I love the Lord, and would give my life to him. I am so grateful for the restord gospel. I have see the lords hand in my life, and I would rather die then denie that. This is what I know to be true. This I say to you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Greg, thanks for sharing. It’s amazing how the adversary works through people. Keep your faith and keep marching on.
Bobbie
It is amazing how much attention this subject brings. I have followed many discussions on this, and everyone is convinced they are right. The bottom line is that whatever your conviction is, everything will appear to reinforce that conviction to you. The facts will always seem indisputable if they reinforce your belief. You will never be able to prove or disprove the Book of Mormon based on the facts you perceive to be true (that includes all those in this thread and their “trump cards”). The debate will go on forever, and it will never be productive. Greg did not come across as arrogant or ignorant. This is life through his eyes. In fact I wish the critics could see how illogical and reliant on assumption their arguments are. Coming from as non-bias of a perspective as I possibly can (though I am bias as a Christian), I would point out how critical others are of Mormons and how non-critical Mormons are of others. If I were to just throw something out there, I would suggest that Satan has really set his focus on destroying the Mormon church above all other Christian churches. Why??
It’s only 531 pages. You guys should all read the Book of Mormon and see all the “lies” in there for yourself. Just remember when you read it, read it willing to learn. Attitude is everything.
Many people have already done a good job debating several of these points in the comments section of the article, but there are a few things I don’t feel have been adequately addressed.
#5
Just a quick point on this question: The BOM does not always promote righteousness. Adam and Eve are praised for their unrighteousness in the fall. In the mainstream Christian community that is not a righteous conclusion, and certainly something I personally disagree with.
#6
Who were the “other sheep” mentioned in John 10:16? They are the gentiles. If Lehi was a decedent of Abraham then he and his decedents would still be of the same fold of the Jews Jesus is talking about in John 10. Gentiles were not of the same fold, but we know it was a huge revelation that Gentiles would be added to the Kingdom. You can read more about this mystery of Christ in Ephesians 3:1-6.
#8
Ezekiel 37:15-20 is not at all about two books as the LDS church teaches. The context is referring to the divide of the Nation of Israel. King Solomon’s son Rehoboam was a bad king. He was very harsh and because of his harshness most of the 12 tribes decided to elect their own king. The nation of Israel was thus divided. The tribe of Judah stayed with the rightful king, and Ephraim choose a new king not ordained by God. This is what Ezekiel is talking about. If you continue reading the rest of the chapter we see it is David’s descendent Jesus who will bring everyone together forever according to this prophecy, and we see that fulfilled in the new testament with the new and perfect covenant (John 19:30, Hebrews 7:17 & 22, Hebrews 12:28-29,Ephesians 3:21, Matthew 28:18-20, Matthew 16:16-18, Hebrews 13:5-6, 2 Corinthians 4:8-10).
This passage also refers to literal sticks, not books. If it were about books, then why stop at two? You have the Old Testament, the New Testament, the BOM, D&C, The Pearl of Great Price, The Book of Abraham, and countless other documents written by LDS prophets and apostles. Also, the Hebrew word used in this passage is “aits” & literally means piece of wood. It’s used in other verses to clearly speak about sticks, not scrolls. For examples see 1 kings 17:12 & 2 kings 6:1-7. The word for scroll in Hebrew is “megillah,” which is actually mentioned in Ezekiel 3:1-3.
Well there’s spiritual truth and there historical record. I take no offense to the claim that the Book of Mormon is spiritual truth. It simple means that the book provides you with spiritual guidance and meaning.
Now if you were to tell me that the book is historical record, I’d have to have a little laugh at your expense. If the aim of the book is to describe the history of the people on the American continent, it’s a very clumsy fraud. There’s not a shred of evidence to support a Jewish migration to the Americas.
I think the LDS church realizes this. We’re told that the Hill Cumorah was the site of the bloody last stand of the Nephites. The LDS owns this property. There has been no attempt to excavate to find evidence.
A prominent Mesoamerican archaeologist from Yale University wrote:
“As far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the historicity of The Book of Mormon, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group” Michael D. Coe
But The Book of Mormon gives hope and meaning to many people. It doesn’t have to be literal history to be spiritual truth. According to Dr Coe, there are active Mormon archaeologists that don’t believe in the literal historicity of the book.
I think most people can agree that the Bible is in the same category. Not everything in the Bible is literal history. It’s a collection of tales and fables of a nomadic tribe. Spiritually it rings true for many people. A good percentage of these people don’t believe in a global flood, the story of Adam and Eve or talking donkeys. But the lessons that are taught through Biblical fables bring meaning and hope.
Does it really have to be historical record to be scripture? If this is the case, you’d have to throw out most of the Old Testament.
Why not just say it’s an inspired book that inspires me?
I don’t understand the desire to prove something that is historically absurd.
John 19:30 Christ died on the cross and said “it is FINISHED” Rev 21: 5-8. Rev 22: 18-21 (there is only 1 testament of Jesus Christ, this passage makes it crystal clear.). Just reading the initial scripture about should let you see the Book of Mormon contradicts Scripture , A few other readings Matthew:24 3-5, 10-11, Cor 11: 13-15, Matthew 7: 15, Jeremiah 14:14, Jeremiah 23:21-22 Duet 13:1-3 It is clear “prophets will present signs and visions…which clearly Joseph Smith had done!
haters gonna hate.
I am an adamant live and let live person. their are some thing though that need to be set strait
First were not Mormons, Mormon was a guy who abridged the records which became the Book of Mormon. He doesn’t have any doctrine or isms. there is no such thing as Mormonism or he’s a Mormon …. that’s not a real religion.
we are called the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Not the Mormons.
get it right people you sound ignorant when you say it wrong LOL
second if your going to say something can be proven or dis proven provide sources , links and documentation that can be verified through credible sources. the reason I say this is because the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints is shrouded in urban legend, myths and complete lies. many of these look and sound very convincing but when they come under scrutiny they fall apart.
If you have undeniable evidence that the church isn’t true and the Book of Mormon is fake then don’t hide behind well I could tell you but you won’t believe me.
that’s just a way of saying I don’t really have anything solid but I just don’t want your church to be true. otherwise bring it on!
I’m not about who’s right i’m not trying to be right I’m all about what’s right.
I think to many of you are trying to hard to be right and loosing site of what’s right.
so if you have hard evidence then provide links or shut up.
Also not one of us was there to see what really happened so any and everything we have is all second and third hand information and we all know that if your dealing with an urban legend then if it didn’t happen to you, It didn’t happen.
Joesph Smith says words like I, me , us and we, there was none of the I knew this guy who knows this girl who talked to this other guy who said he saw Ferris Buler pass out at 31 flavors last night so it must be true…. I’ve herd a lot of that when dealing with people who are trying to discredit the Book of Mormon.
ok that being said The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints has brought nothing but goodness into my life. Weather or not the doctrine is true or false, whether the book of Mormon is true or false it’s like Buddhism it holds me to a higher standard, one that I would not have achieved on my own. By following the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints I have become a better husband , father and all around person. this would not have happen if I was a member of another faith.
If I believed that Jesus died for me so I can do what ever I want and it really just doesn’t matter, (which is the underlining message of most christian faiths. ) then I would be a mess because I could. The Church of Jesus Christ teaches me to be a better person this is an undeniable fact. Anything that makes you better is a good thing another undeniable fact.
now haters are going to say that’s not true bla bla bla but the fact is I am not talking about you or even to you. I am talking about my own life.
If you think the Book of Mormon is a complete waste of your time then guess what … it is. does that make you a bad person? no but their are a lot of other things to measure you badness by than weather or not you actually care about God.
Jesus Christ taught that all knowledge comes from God, here a little and there a little line upon line precept on precept. it also means that he teaches in many different ways but the messages are all the same. Some people accept the Book of Mormon for what it is and others reject it because they are not ready or able to learn that way, and they may never be. this doesn’t mean they are sinners or bad people but it also means that I am not a fool for believing in something that makes me a better person. and I can provide sources for that.
Thanks Sarah!
I would love to write about Grace. Thanks for posting. I would also agree with you that I am for sure biased. But who is not?
Thanks! I would love to write about grace next. I agree that I am for sure biased. But who is not?
Actually, you find LOADS of evidence of ancient Mongolian horses. Horseshoes, wide bridges, stables, mentions in ancient writings and pictures, etc. (All of which are conspicuously absent in the Americas, BTW)
I think what you meant to say is that there’s no horse bones that have been radio-carbon dated to some particular arbitrary time period. Which is probably more due to the overwhelming evidence supporting their existence rather than a lack of actual bones. Think about it. If you were an archaeologist in the far future, looking through some ruins from our day, and you found an i-phone, would you go run off to your lab to get it tested? No. You’d probably just toss it in the trash. You’d know exactly what it was and where it came from. There’s nothing groundbreaking, or even very interesting about it. You’d have pictures, books, manuals, movies, etc. all attesting to exactly what it is and when it was from. There’d be literally thousands of examples of the exact same thing gathering dust in bin in some museum storage somewhere. It would not require any further testing, because its a non-issue.
An archaeologist would look at an ancient Mongolian horse bone in the exact same way.
Perfectly put!
This is the most ignorant comment on the entire thread
This comment from Janice is very ignorant and untrue. I have read the Book of Mormon at least 10 times. I have felt the spirit many times. I was very active in church, paid a full tithe, read/studied my scriptures daily, prayed morning and night, fulfilled callings, was married in the temple, did my visiting teaching, and thought I knew the church was true. Once I did start having doubts, I was still doing all those things, and I kept at all the church stuff – I never touched an unclean book, never read a piece of “anti-mormon” literature, was far too scared to even look at a post-mormon blog or website, never drank, never looked at porn, never watched R rated movies, etc. But the more I studied and thought it out in my mind, I realized that the church was not true. I was so terrified of disappointing my family that I even kept going to church for quite some time after I had my answer. Now, after being out about no longer believing in the church, I am still so worried about disappointing my family that I couldn’t even bring myself to wear a tank top in 100 degree weather in front of them (my parents, siblings – my husband doesn’t care what I wear) over the 4th of July. And I don’t even think tank tops are inappropriate, I just didn’t want to remind them that I no longer wear garments! So to say anyone who leaves the church was a sinner is not true. I still haven’t tried alcohol even though I no longer believe in the Word of Wisdom. And I would never look at porn. I also want to point out that I feel the spirit now more than ever, but I now realize it’s a great feeling that I get when I am doing something awesome/great or am moved by an act of kindness/greatness or watching/listening something touching. I feel it when I look at nature, hold my cute baby, or even when I hear about a gay couple that can now get married.
I’m glad that you continue to keep up appearances so that other people aren’t reminded of your abandoning of your covenants. I find it fascinating that you count the times you read the book of Mormon and now you “feel the spirit” even more. There are always wonderful feelings out there but to feel the Holy Ghost is quite a bit different as he testifies of truth. Keeping at all the church “stuff” and knowing that your husband doesn’t care tells a lot about what is really going on despite your claim that you did it all. The gospel isn’t a check list. There’s no “doing it all right” to be had.
Thank you so much for this post! I’ve been pondering this issue for a while now, ever since reading, well partially, the infamous CES letter, “How I Lost my Testimony”. This man’s arguments don’t add up, and you could say he actually gives Joseph Smith a whole lot of credit for thinking an uneducated boy could come up with such a complicated “fiction”. If only I could write such a novel! Especially when Joseph’s own wife said he couldn’t compose a decent letter, let alone write something like the Book or Mormon without divine guidance.
An excellent book to read is “Evidences of the True Church” by Dennis Brown. He discusses the Chiasmus found in the Book of Mormon which have been reviewed and discussed by Hebrew scholars. He discusses other evidence of ancient temple worship, etc. I was also impressed this week by reading about the Mormon pioneers, specifically the women. How many times did they abandon everything they had worked for and the relative peace they had found, as the mobs approached and drove them out. Time and time again they left their homes and all their worldly possessions. That certainly wasn’t the easy way. If those men and women didn’t have a firm conviction that the church is true, that the Book of Mormon is true, they could have easily turned their backs on Joseph Smith and the church and started a much easier way of life. Does anyone really believe that those early church members would have made so many sacrifices for something that was fraudulent?
So many of the detractors consider any answers they get to be from “Mormon apologists”. In my opinion, these people are the apologists. They have made up their minds that the Book of Mormon is false, and they will hear nothing to the contrary.
For me the bottom line is, and I think this is what some who have left the Mormon church are missing, the Holy Ghost has to bear witness that the Book of Mormon is true. No amount of physical evidence is proof enough. In order to understand the things of God, to know the things of the Spirit, you have to be taught by the Holy Ghost and receive that witness. Yes, that means feelings and no, it isn’t physical or concrete, yet while some would deride that we put too much emphasis on those feelings, I can never deny the witness I’ve had that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient plates, and that the Book of Mormon is true.
That’s an erroneous argument. There are actually several places in the scriptures where we are commanded not to “add unto the word”. Even non-Mormon biblical scholars know that the Bible was not compiled in the order written. The Lord nowhere states that He will not add until His word. The Book of Mormon is the word of God and another witness of the ministry of Jesus Christ.
Jim, this is a common and arrogant theme that permeates LDS culture–the idea that if one does not receive a witness of the truth of LDS doctrine, that he or she is wicked or easily offended or weak. This type of argument is interestingly very common in cults as well. Your logic has no basis in LDS doctrine either. Even if all these people were doing what you claim in your blanket statement, that would not inhibit them from receiving a witness of the truth of the doctrine, only the “constant companionship” of the Spirit. Think of King Lamoni, Alma, Alma the Younger, the Sons of Mosiah, etc., etc. All wicked and lascivious men who received a witness, many of which were raised in the “Gospel.” Your logic is flawed and highly arrogant.
Mosiah 27: 14 says “Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith.” This experience shows that it was not due to Alma the Younger, or the Sons of Mosiah, none of whom wanted to know the truth, but the faith of Alma (the elder), who wanted his son to know the truth, and the other members of the Church, who wanted to stop being persecuted, which led the Lord to end their suffering by sending an angel to their persecutors.
King Lamoni already had a testimony of God, or as he knew him, the ‘Great Spirit.’
Alma 18:26-29 says
“26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?
27 And he said, Yea.
28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?
29 And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens.”
Lamoni only needed direction, and guidance to know how to proceed with his fledgling testimony, which was provided by a missionary sent from God, or Ammon.
As for Alma the Elder (yes, i’m aware he is never called that in the Book of Mormon) He was aware of the sins and iniquities of the people, knew they need to change, and that the way to do that was to turn to God and repent of his sins.
Mosiah 17:2 says “But there was one among them whose name was Alma, he also being a descendant of Nephi. And he was a young man, and he believed the words which Abinadi had spoken, for he knew concerning the iniquity which Abinadi had testified against them; therefore he began to plead with the king that he would not be angry with Abinadi, but suffer that he might depart in peace.”
Mosiah 18:1 says “And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, repented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi—”
Which brings about my last point. Have these people who cannot receive a witness of Christ fully repented of their sins? I am not saying that they haven’t, or that they have grievous sins that need confessing to their Bishop, but even small sins can weigh on you, until the point when your heart becomes hardened, and you can no longer feel the promptings of the spirit, warning you against the sins you are committed. And it is understandable that this might be hard for many of you to accept, as “I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.” (1 Nephi 16:2) While the wicked have “preached many things which were flattering unto the people” ( Jacob 7:2)
If you didn’t want to read all of that (TL;DR):
Jim might be wrong when he says that all ex-mormons were sinners, but you also might be wrong when you say that sinners can still receive a witness of Christ, or that people who don’t receive a witness aren’t sinners.
I know that the Book of Mormon is true, and that living with Christ in the center of your life will make your life happier. I know that you must be living a righteous life to receive guidance from God, and that you must as with a sincere heart, and a contrite spirit, if these things are true. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
I feel compelled to comment. I am amazed at how disrespectful all of these comments are towards you as a person and your beliefs. Amazed. I enjoyed your post and your testimony. Thank you for your courage.
Thanks Patti!
Why do I have to keep the word of wisdom? Why should I pay tithing? Etc… It all comes down to whether the Book of Mormon is true… If the book is indeed true then the revelations given to Joseph Smith from God found in the D&C and also the Temple ordinances etc are valid. We’ve all experienced Cognitive Dissonance and have chosen a side. Whether you are “anti Mormon or “pro Mormon” all information that is given will be rejected fully depending on what side you chose. That being said I am pro Mormon. I know the Bible to be true through the Holy Spirit and by that same sense I know the Book of Mormon to be another testament of the Savior Jesus Christ. It is as simple as that! You say..”but wait Joseph Smith added the words (Son of God) to the Text. ..or Benjamin was changed to Mosiah to all subsequent additions after 1830 Or how about the basics and go with “anachronisms”. “You should read Jerald and Sandra Tanner 3,913 Changes of the Book of Mormon”! Or “check out the Mormonism shadow or reality to know what you really believe!” “Read McKeever & Johnson’s work…and the list goes on and on (BTW I’ve read and examine all and more ). Yet I’m still firm with my testimony…soooo yeah.
Good testimony Bro GT. 😉
Thanks! 🙂
I left the church for along time and have recently come back. I can’t argue “proof” or “science” with anyone, but I can tell you one thing that matters more to me than either of those things. Away from the teachings of the gospel I was very unhappy, while my standards never changed, I had no direction in terms of faith. I spent a long time looking for the truth until I turned around and realized the truth was what I had walked away from all those years ago. I now have a measure of comparison. The difficulties and pain of life are buffered by those moments when I seek guidance in scripture and prayer. I studied other Christian religions but none of them made sense for me. I understand some people’s desire to seek proof in facts, but for me the proof has always been what is right with my soul. It’s kind of like love I guess, religion and faith can’t be measured with a yard stick, though people do try. There is no limit or set amount that a person can love or feel love and there’s no external measure that can prove God exists or that religion is real and necessary. I believe that ultimately, what you believe has to be right with your soul and for me the best measure of that is happiness.
Jim,
I myself am questioning everything I hold dearly in the church, and I am sorry but I am not doing a thing like what you have said. I attend church every week, I pray with my children every night, my husband and I read our scriptures together often and try to read other church publications and discuss them at family home evening. We have never broken the word of wisdom, we do not allow R-rated movies in our home, my husband does not involve himself in pornography and we have filled our home with pictures of the savior, the temple and items like “The Living Christ.” Our current struggle has absolutely nothing to do with living a life in discordance with the church. It was our scripture study and questions arising from it that have gotten us into our current lackluster situation. Please do not make generalizations on which you know nothing about. It is pervasive ideas like this about gone astray church members that makes them never want to return. I hope that you can find it in your heart to realize that people struggle with the church for many reasons, and that sin is not usually the source of their leaving the church. Members in good standing and good faith should try harder to understand where people like me are coming from, reach out to us in love and fellowship to help try to resolve our questions, not allienate us and make assumptions about us that are completely off the mark.
Lindsay,
If you a studying the scriptures with your husband and including the Lord in your scripture studies, I find it hard to comprehend or understand how one can question their belief in the gospel. You seem to have listed things that are definitely important to nourishing our testimonies and our personal progression. BUT are they done whole heartedly, are these things being done in your home because you want to do it? or because you are told to do it? or because you want people to see that you do these things? When one is doing everything they can to choose the right, you will be filled with good feelings. Sometimes as a mother myself, my kids would be asleep and i would sit there and feel overwhelmed, almost to the point where satan sneaks in and questions starts to fly around “is this it? is this what life is like in the gospel? am i satisfied?” etc etc What i am getting at is that satan is real! He is attacking full force and he will use every little gap to get in. You leave a window slightly open and he will try get in, whether it be through your thoughts, a little white lie or a question that goes beyond our own understanding. The scriptures and scripture studies as husband and wife are meant to draw us closer to Heavenly Father not further away from Him.
I don’t claim to have ‘studied’ the Muslim faith, however, I can accurately state that you, Rod, would have a firm ‘testimony’ of the Koran and the Muslim faith had you been born in the middle east, and the comment you just made about the Muslim religion would have been reversed. If you had been born in Italy, you would be a devout Catholic, and ‘know’ that Catholicism was the only true religion. Had you been born in Arkansas to a Southern Baptist family, you would ‘know’ that Mormonism is a non-Christian cult. Everyone believes just as firmly as you do, it is simply a matter of perspective.
I was born in Italy to Catholic parents who later converted to Mormonism. They as well as I are not devout catholics. How do you explain that?
I forgot to mention that my husband has not only left the church but no longer believes anything. God is an “entity”. No one has ever seen him or can prove he exists. (The bible is just a bunch of stories).
The all-or-nothing BoM argument is ridiculous. The book has pure fiction mixed with Amero-Christian-Puritanistic values. The principles will ring true cause, duh, being good feels better than being bad. The book proves that Joseph Smith was very clever, loved hearing and telling stories, and wanted to make a name for himself. On the other hand, the book falls short when held up to scholarly pursuit. There is no real physical evidence that the native Mesoamericans were Christian. That is a fantasy and a delusion. There is no linguistic or genetic evidence that the Mesoamericans were of Hebrew descent. If someone wants to prove, for instance, that the BoM must be true because of chaismus in Alma 34, or Hebraic sounding names throughout, how about this: what book do you think Joseph Smith heard more of as a child and adolescent than any other? A good and correct guess would be the Bible. He heard it or read it every day. Also, do you think no one in upstate New York ever heard that there were mysterious people in Mexico that had ancient cities? That is a mystery begging for demystification. Here came Joseph.
I am annoyed with Mormons. I was a Mormon, faithfully, for 30 years. RM, priesthood holder, all the normal, faithful things. I left. It wasn’t worth the investment. Why am I annoyed? Because good people are still being duped. Being conned out of their own minds, their intuition, their freedom, their own happiness, their money. It is incomprehensible to a believing member, because they have been taught to thoroughly “doubt their doubts before they doubt their faith”. So, there goes intuition, and all other meaningful personal sovereignty. The church’s only response is to tell members to beware people saying things like I am saying, that I am only saying it because I am miserable and jealous of members happiness. It is the opposite. This approach reminds me of when GWBush said the terrorists hate America because of our freedoms. It’s spin. Dogma. Protection of the institution. And that annoys me.
So, be free and happy. Be your own person. You can be as good as any Mormon, and leave the baggage of the church. Better than a Mormon because you don’t need to have the church as some artificial motivation for your good deeds. The reclamation of your sovereignty is a real victory, I hope more members of the church get some courage and claim their own happiness.
I’m sorry Greg, but there are so many incorrect statements in your post that I would not know where to begin. If you’re vying for a job as a professional “leader” however, you’re on the right crazy track. (are you related to the right people?)
“They (the ex-mormons) are so good with their ‘facts’ and seem so happy with how smugly they can present them.” See, that’s the difference between those that tell the “truth” and those that perpetuate silly, magical thinking…..”FACTS”.
Truth is reason, truth eternal. Your arguments deal in conjecture while ex-mormons can provide physical evidence to back up their claims. Your hero Mr. Holland has also said that “Some things that are true, are not very useful.” If the Book of Mormon is so true, why then does the church hide and withhold the “evidence” that contradicts it?
Tell ya what though….find horse bones that prove they were here before the Spanish brought them, find one sword at Cummorah, (yes the church has dug and found nothing), show me proof that Joseph Smith did not marry little girls or other men’s wives, show me proof that he didn’t impregnate 14 yr old Fannie Alger while she was a maid in Emma’s house, show me proof that the Nauvoo abortions did not take place and show me where one of those lousy witnesses EVER said that they saw the plates with their physical eyes and not their “spiritual eyes”……………I could go on for hours….You Sir, are selling a LIE. Come up with some pesky “facts” and I’ll repent and be rebaptised!
Impregnate? You just discredited everything you said. And it wasn’t Holland, it was Packer. And here is your horse: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/05/0511_ancienthorses.html
If you are going to argue with “facts” you should study up instead of just repeating things your friends tell you.
I don’t think any sensible person question that the book of Mormon is fake. Obviously it’s a “real” book written by a real person.
What begs questioning is the Christian religion in general. Jesus had a positive message, like any enlightened individual, but it in no way asked for massive worship, million dollar churches and temples, or asked for a portion of your income.
Don’t worry, I don’t believe any of the organized religions. I’ve read the book of mormon, my family are baptized. It’s a nice, comforting story. But the church is misguided and should not hold people’s after life as hostage, play in politics, or cherry pick sins in regards to looking the other way.
The money used to build temples and taken from LDS followers should be used to fight the mass hunger killing 12,000 children a day. If you truly believe the word of jesus, show the people of the world that Christ blessed you and you have the power to save their life…and soul if that’s your prerogative.
Christians are not right for ways you will never admit.
Thanks for taking the time to post Dominique.
Ryan – I don’t sit by this thing and moderate comments all day. I’ve been in the car all day and just sat down to moderate comments. 232…and it takes awhile. Have a little patience brother!
I see, you have it set up to not post at all until you’ve screened everything. Man, that’s cumbersome, but I suppose due to the nature of your site that you don’t want to risk profanity.
Thanks for the comment. I’ll think it over. I just wrote what I believe and what I have studied. Thanks
Thank you brother!
Thanks Mason!
Great thought Morgan. Reminds me of Elder Holland!
Repost. I haven’t seen anything from you come through… Sometimes the system doesn’t like things in the post. Did you post a link or anything?
Thank you!
you may not realize how many hours it takes to go through hundreds of comments. I’m trying my best…
I apologize, sincerely. Thank you for providing this forum, Greg.
Hey Kyle! No prob man! Thanks for adding to the discussion! You’re great!
What good is “the gospel” if you don’t have a church to carry it?
Gayle are you for real… The church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints studies the Bible. I teach my 10 and 11 year Olds the old testament every Sunday right now. Please don’t spread lies..people believe everything the read on the Internet. Because if Gayle said it it’s true for sure
Thanks, Greg. I really enjoy your blog! Totally agree with you on all points. Like another “commentator” said, I just think it is amazing how much time some people spend bashing the church and those who believe it’s tenets. Why is it so important for them to tear down what is so important to another? But, hey, I guess we do know from whence their aggression stems, and I guess it only makes sense that the adversary would do everything in his limited power to destroy that which is good. I guess if the haters weren’t out there the whole “opposition in all things” (as described in the Book of Mormon) would not be truly at work, which would make it more difficult for us to deliciously enjoy and recognize the good. So, I guess in a way they are doing us a favor, right? Keep writing!
Thanks!
I believe Christ was speaking to the people in and around Jerusalem when he said, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Those people, in and around Jerusalem, knew what sheep were and those who understood Jesus Christ knew that he was the shepherd and they followed him.
Book of Mormon 3 Nephi Chapter 15
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and said unto them: Behold, ye have heard the things which I taught before I ascended to my Father; therefore, whoso remembereth these sayings of mine and doeth them, him will I raise up at the last day.
2 And it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he perceived that there were some among them who marveled, and wondered what he would concerning the law of Moses; for they understood not the saying that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.
3 And he said unto them: Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.
4 Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.
5 Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.
6 Behold, I do not destroy the prophets, for as many as have not been fulfilled in me, verily I say unto you, shall all be fulfilled.
7 And because I said unto you that old things have passed away, I do not destroy that which hath been spoken concerning things which are to come.
8 For behold, the covenant which I have made with my people is not all fulfilled; but the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me.
9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.
10 Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me.
11 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen:
12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.
13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief theyunderstood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said:Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should beconverted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
Fair enough, but if you took your cellphone back to the 1800s they’d probably call it a “magic rock”. When you don’t understand how something works you apply the nearest label you do understand. Maybe it was a backlighted Kindle equipped with Google Translate, who cares, the point is because we don’t know, faith must rule our actions. This is the way religion always functions.
Even those that don’t believe in religion tend to believe in “something”. There’s too much unexplained serendipity to not attribute it to “something”, whatever your “religion” may be.
Weren’t you posting about straw men earlier? Clearly JS had a rock, which was an actual rock. Your comment is my point exactly, though. People would thing a smart phone is magic. And 100 years from now, things that were previously unexplainable mysteries will be explained by science. Religion was created to attempt to answer questions that no one could observe the answer to. But as science advances, religious claims retreat. So now what we’re literal claims by religion are now just “spiritual”. If your ideas are proved wrong, just shift them to the “spiritual” universe- where it’s all made up and the points don’t matter!
…you have no idea how DNA research actually works…. Do you…
An exceptional layout of evidence. People will bash The Book of Mormon and say how great their studies are at exposing it as false. Yawn. In my mind, the way The Book of Mormon so seamlessly fits together with the Bible with Ezekiel 37:15-20 and John 10:16 perfectly explains it coming from the same source as the Bible did.
As a fact though, anyone who would say that they can contradict you on every point though is just delusional and sounding desperate. I wouldn’t use that argument even if I knew any movement was completely wrong. There are just too many ways to find something little to contradict such a statement. Such a desperate move strikes so deeply at the credibility of any one who would use such an argument.
What’s even sillier is that I don’t see these people striking at the credibility of the Muslim faith, but they are certainly set on annoying us. To tell you the truth I would be perfectly willing to rebel against the “Mormon Church” if I found anything worth of reproach not just at The Book of Mormon level, but even up to the leadership. I’m very scrupulous in my judgement. I was completely ready to rebel as a teenager, but I got a small piece of inspiration that I was willing to act on. Nobody would even expect that I ever had such thoughts before I wrote this. It’s hard to persuade someone when nobody knows what they think.
This I know. God answers the thoughts of the heart whether people want him to or not. People will know the truth. Most likely people who are upset and attack things or demand more answers do so because they’re just not satisfied with the answers they already have received. People may attack God’s very existence, but the interesting thing is I can’t help but feel them testify of his existence with every attack. I feel it’s more true the more they hate it. Their hate is converted in my heart to an understand of exactly what they are doing wrong with their life. I definitely do my research and ask them a few questions about how they perceive life and they agree with me completely that they’re wrong. They just don’t want to answer any direct questions about it.
I’ve done study after study on myself and my own thoughts. On spiritual influences and their effects. I’ve tried to prove naysayers right at every opportunity possible and I’ve been contradicted by unseen forces where I have used complex pattern arrangement to protect everything so that nobody really knows or understands me. However, there must be, otherwise all the “coincidences” that seem to happen to 7 billion people on the planet just wouldn’t. The statistical significance is staggering by how many “coincidences” happen in peoples lives.
This I know. If I want to believe the contrary to my beliefs in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I can do so all I want to and I will always see witnesses even with the most simple and subtle contradictions of my beliefs. I will get answers and it doesn’t even matter if I perfectly switch my pattern of right and wrong in my heart. The responses in the world just follow right in a line. It’s quite impressive how fast so many people who don’t even know me all the sudden communicate the “correct” answer to my questions. When I see people who try to fight their impressions it is just obvious and sad for me. I feel sad because I know the reason these people are fighting so hard against us. What are we doing to them? Nothing. That’s just a fact and we’re confused as to why they hate us so much. It should have be obvious to us that God is giving them answers that they don’t want. That’s why they hate us so much. You want to prove me wrong? Just don’t care about us. If it’s not true as you claim it is then what does it hurt you to have us believe what we “apparently want” to believe. The only way it hurts you is if you have spiritual witness by God himself telling you that it’s right and you don’t want to believe it so badly that you will do anything to say it’s wrong. Honestly, I’m totally fine with you believing whatever you want to believe naysayers. Don’t believe it’s true. I really don’t care. You believe what you think is right.
If you think it’s right to annoy people and act against their religious beliefs then I would want you to do as you feel is right. I’ll do what I think is right. I have a very hard time believing that you would feel that that’s right, but I’m willing to trust you. If you think it’s right to criticize my religious beliefs then I hope you so. I have had so much in my life showing me that it’s right that I’m going to happily accept all your criticism and I’ll just be happy that you’re doing what you think is right. If everyone does what they think is right I know God will help us find the truth. What a better world this would be if everyone did what they truly knew what was right. I know that God teaches what is right. It’s only by refusing to follow God that one does all the things that makes one hate Him. In the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
SLB,
Reading your post just broke my heart. I have an illness that is severe and will never go away despite many prayers, blessings and fasts to try to fix it. But I know that the days I cannot get out of bed but have so much to accomplish I miraculously receive strength. It has given me perspective and has refined me more than any challenge I could receive. And I will live with it my entire life with no light at the end of the tunnel for me. But I have grown to rely on my Heavenly Father more than ever because I was able to keep my faith. It has solidified my testimony and converted me more. I could have left many times because I didn’t feel like my Heavenly Father was listening. But I didn’t and I’m so grateful for the 1 day a month I feel great. He gives that to me so the 30 other days in the month are worth it.
Great outlook on life!
I grew up with LDS neighbors in So Cal. Attended one of their ward services. Children as young as 6 or 8 stood up to say they know the church is true. If that isn’t indoctrination, what is?
Well, then you can’t prove unicorns aren’t real either. Their bones could be uncovered tomorrow! Doesn’t mean you should assume that they are real. That’s the point of science. It doesn’t assume something is true until there is evidence to support the claim. Your religion is claiming something is true despite no scientific evidence backing your claim, and in spite of mountains of evidence discrediting it. Produce some actual evidence, and I’d love to listen
“You also reflect the conviction and testimony of thousands even millions around the globe who has had an unmistakable confirmation that The Book of Mormon is from God – holy scripture, a confirmation received through divine communication, similar to the gut feeling when you know something is right – this is true.”
So, to the people who feel that divine “gut feeling” about a different faith, what do you say? Are Mormons’ “gut feelings” the only valid ones? Do you understand that it may be programmed in humans to have a “gut” confirmation effect within themselves as a survival or self defense mechanism to reduce feelings of doubt?
If there is a general source of truths, then it can direct all people to it. There’s truths outside the Mormon faith and we take Jesus’ words literally that we may through holy/heavenly communication be will guide you into all truth. (John 16:13)
“survival or self defense mechanism to reduce feelings of doubt?” Hmm , maybe for some, and I don’t underestimate the uncomfortability of breaking out of the established family tradition. However the real strength of this church are the individual testimonies of each member that had to know for themselves and cannot survive on borrowed light.
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Joseph Smith was a Freemason so he learn much from there both true and false. The Mormon Temples are filled with Masonic rituals and symbolism. Freemason’s worship Baphomet. Before Joseph Smith ever started the Church of Mormon he found his “seer-stone” while digging a well, he would trick people into believing he could find buried Indian treasures by putting his “seer-stone” into his hat and being able to see things within the stone kinda like a crystal ball. For a reading he would make people pay him, It turns that all his claims of being able to locate buried Indian treasure was a lie and he was even arrested and put in jail for doing such things to people and stealing their money. Issac Hale, Joseph Smith father in law even testified that the way Joseph Smith translated the supposed gold plates was the same way he tricked people and stole their money with his “seer-stone.” Also Joseph Smith always held a Jupiter Talisman which is apart of Pagan worship which he believed gave him power, riches, authority, Etc. Which he probably gained out of his involvement with the Occult or witches which he would have fellowship with from time to time. Also the Bible tells, “Galatians 1:6-9King James Version (KJV)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” These people accepted a new Gospel from a Angel which is strictly forbidden by Biblical scripture, why? Because!!! “2 Corinthians 11:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” Islam claims to have done the same exact thing, they claim that they got their Quran from the Angel Gabriel. The fact is within Biblical scripture a Angel never once came and tried to change the word of God. Satan wants to change the word of God to discredit it, to make people believe a lie, Satan is trying to make himself look like Jesus which he has done through the Religious Image of Jesus. But if you actually read the Bible the will find a much different Jesus being spoke of rather then the one most Churches preach of, This is due to Catholicism and them combining Paganism with Christianity which is still strong in the Church to this day. Joseph Smith also saw himself better then Paul, John, Peter, and Jesus!! ”
“God is in the still small voice. In all
these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on!
ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains,
roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to
boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to
keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the
whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I
boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away
from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History
of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).” Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Brigham Young who taught many false doctrines within the Church of Mormon, one being that Adam was God the Father, had this to say about Joseph Smith. ”
“No man or
woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God
without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken
from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must
have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance
into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot
go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last
dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there
triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of
Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to
the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world.
He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God
does in heaven. Many will ex-claim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is
preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” (Journal of
Discourses Pg. 289.) “John 14:6King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” ” Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” If you don’t know anything about the Occult I strongly recommend you study it and learn their deceptive ways, there are many organizations involved with it and one of them is Freemasonry. They have much control over the world and the way things play out including Religions, Governments, Wars, Etc. Jesus was not a Religion he came as the True living God! while the Jewish Pharisees were worshipping a Religion and denying the True Living God this is why Jesus was in conflict with them so much and rebuking and reproving them.
Could you email me a few citations for some things? I’m having trouble finding articles or pdfs for #3 and #7.
And the Book of Mormon actually does contradict itself. ”
Strange as
it may seem, current LDS doctrine has even departed from the teachings found in
the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith
claimed the Book of Mormon contained the “fulness” of the everlasting
gospel (Doctrine and Covenants, 27:5), and “a man would get nearer to God
by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Teachings of the
Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).
Yet the Book
of Mormon teaches there is only “one God” (Alma 11:26-29, Ether 2:8),
and that God has always been God (Moroni 8:18, Moroni 7:22).
Furthermore,
it teaches the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE God (2 Nephi 31:21, Mormon
7:7), and that God is a Spirit (Alma 18:26-28).
Its pages
also do not contain the doctrine that men may become Gods.
To make
matters even worse, the Book of Mormon nowhere says that God is married, and it
consistently condemns polygamy (Jacob 2:2&27,Mosiah 11:2). It seems almost
unbelievable that Mormons claim to have a powerful “burning in the
bosom” testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, yet refuse to believe
what the Book of Mormon teaches.
This is true
with many major LDS doctrines. Sad to say, most Mormons are unaware their
doctrines have undergone such drastic change.
You suppose much, yet understand little. You’re also missing the forest for the trees. Let me simplify the matter of follow a prophet of God: https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
This talk was given by Pres. Benson about how to follow a prophet, it should clear up some of your misconceptions (especially #3).
As to your blatant misunderstanding and astounding lack of simple comprehension, you’re not the first to struggle with these “issues”. Here is a simple explanation to a similar set of questions/concerns:
http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/the-book-of-mormon-and-the-fulness-of-the-gospel
“This is true with many major LDS doctrines” – Since its abundantly clear you don’t understand the doctrines you listed, its a huge stretch to assume you have any understanding of other doctrines which “have undergone such drastic change”.
Very interesting!
Don’t let your “intellectual” mind get in the way of your “Spiritual” mind. As intelligent beings we often find ourselves wanting to find more about how things work and why. We read something that starts us thinking about “what if”. It’s then that we should realize that simplicity is often more accurate. Remember that God is both merciful and just. Everyone must have a chance to enter His Kingdom. Everyone. And there is only one path to take. Through Jesus Christ and baptism. Ask yourself or others to find a religion or church that preaches that everyone can have those blessings. If baptism was so important that even Jesus had to be baptized how will people who don’t hear of Jesus receive that blessing?
I’ve had too many “Christians” tell me that someone who doesn’t hear of Jesus is condemned. That is neither merciful or just..
There are many who compared the bible with the Book of Mormon and found many things that contradict. There where 3 witnesses that saw the plates and they all changed their convictions. Many of the
prophecies that Joseph said were true were not, where the Bible said to stone those prophets that were wrong. You need to really look into the history of the artifacts and geology that you claim proves the Book of Mormon. In Galatians it warns of being misled by spirits. You need to test the spirits that lead you. If it is only by your feelings then it really can’t be trusted. You need to read in the Bible were it says the heart is deceitful and can’t be trusted. I think if you really are searching for the Lord you would read the Bible first, then Book of Mormon. I know you will say it was not translated right, but there where very strict guidelines for the scribes that translated everything. Look into it. Pray for real truth. No matter where it leads you.
If someone is really searching for God with all their heart, they will read the oldest books first right? So, the Bible will be number 1. So prove that first. See the archeology and history that prove it.. Then compare what the Book of Mormon says. God is able to protect His word for His believers. Look into the history of the Mormon church, how the 3 witnesses changed their interpretation of the golden plates and how they really never saw them. Look at the prophecies that Joseph said where true, (the Bible said to stone a prophet who was wrong even once). Compare with an open heart, seek the True God!
Look how many changes to the Book of Mormon have been made. If God was in charge of it, why where there so misspellings? Surely He can spell???
I believe the Lord knows each of us personally and individually. He understands our hearts, our minds, and our circumstances perfectly. In the end he will judge us according to our decisions, and our desires, in contrast to the level of light and truth we have obtained in this world. We each have our own reasons for believing or not believing but ultimately it will be Jesus Christ who is the judge. In the day he comes we will not be able to hide from Him or ourselves, any of us members and nonmembers, sinners and saints alike, what we know to be true or how we behaved in light or in spite of that knowledge. I can no more believe that all who stray will be cast off for doing what they honestly believed to be right, than I can that he will cast off me if it turns out I was wrong because I have honestly done all I believe to be right and true. As for myself, I know the Book of Mormon, the Savior of whom it testifies, and the Gospel which espouses it to be true; whether or not you believe that, is less important in my mind, than how you act according to the knowledge which you have. All the saving ordinances can be performed for those who are passed, if they live a life on earth such that if they were to find out that these ordinances are required, they would be willing to accept the covenant and obligations required with them.
I thought it was a Larry King, G.B. Hinckley convo… On national television…
.
Problem is Greg, your opinion just isn’t true. Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet. If he was, how is it that the LDS is the church of Christ? Didn’t Jesus say upon this rock I will build my church? Now you know as well as I do that Jesus sure didn’t say that to Joseph Smith. If there was something going to happen as important as what you “believe” Joseph Smith saw and told to people Jesus would have foretold us as the future is already laid out before us in the bible anyhow. By the way now that I think about it, Jesus did mention people like Joseph Smith coming and going in the future. Once again, you know as well as I do that Christ said, “there will be people who come in my name and those who have said there he is, or go there and you will see him. But do not believe those people, for I have already told you so.” Did not Joseph Smith do just that? Yes, he did! That is the bottem line. You either follow him, and believe him, or you believe Jesus Christ and what he said. By the way I want to thank you for reading this Greg. Also thought I would mention that we can be friends, no problem at all. My entire family on nearly both sides is all Mormon except my wife and I as we follow Jesus Christ and Him alone. Yet, I get along fine with the Mormons. Also, if there was more than one heaven I have to say, it would have been told to us by Jesus. There is only one darkness and one light my friend. That’s it. Right, we all will get our rewards as we deserve what we have done here on the earth. That has been told to us. Some will get more crowns that others. That has been told to us. But there is only one heaven brother.
Thanks Jeff. I hope someday we’re all hanging out in that heaven. God bless you brother
Greg,
Your courage to address eternal topics is motivating and inspiring. I started reading your blogs a few months ago and have been touched by your meekness yet realist perspective. I truly believe that when we pass from this mortality we each will have a “life review,” and you brother will have many proud moments of standing up for what you know to be true.
I believe it is of no value to fight against what you don’t stand for or don’t believe, in fact, I find the very activity of doing such things disheartening and hollowing. I have slipped into that trap a time or two and have felt a cavity in my heart as I spent effort working against something I wasn’t a fan of. I believe we are most fulfilled when we fight “for” what we believe in and what we stand for. I love Pres Gordon B Hinckley’s words, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.” I know you stand for truth and goodness, for the very things that Christ taught, Love and Charity. Your example is noted by many.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ has blessed so many lives including my own. The Book of Mormon inspires faith, love, and eternal perspective that only brings an abundance of meaning to anyone who reads it with a sincere heart. I hope that anyone in question as to what is true will read this divine book and pray to our Heavenly Father with a sincere heart to know if it is true. As to those that feel that they know that it is not true, I would challenge you to decide what it is you stand for, and then labor and exert effort in support of whatever that is, be productive, don’t waste the precious time of life working or fighting against something you don’t agree with, life is too short. Find passion and heart in something good and be a productive soul, not a destructive one.
Anything that is false will crumble in time, so, if you believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is false, then time will tell, as for now, it is thriving and doing good works all over the world. Get busy living your life for a cause not against anything, and let time reveal truth in its fullness. I add my witness to Greg’s, I know that Joseph Smith is and was a true prophet of the living God. He still lives in an immortal sphere, laboring for the cause of truth. He translated the preserved record of ancient America, labored to place it in the hands of every soul that would partake, and then sealed his commitment and conviction to this work by dying a martyr. The Book of Mormon is true, Christ lives and is mindful of everything that takes place, even the humble words of Greg Trimble.
God is mighty to save!!
Thanks Sam! Thank you so much!
You say Mormon’s have “two choices: (1) consciously decide to live and perpetuate the lie and destroy their own integrity or….” Really? Do you think that choosing to believe in something perpetuates a lie and destroys integrity? Integrity is one of the most valued principles of the Mormon faith. “We believe in being honest, true, chaste and benevolent.” What if you find out it was true someday? Who does that make the liar?
Actually, Ezra Taft Benson called the Book of Mormon the “Keystone of our Religion”. We could argue about “evidence” til kingdom come, but if you truly understand the Book of Mormon you will know that faith and hope is the only way to gain a testimony of it. You can search for “proof” all you want, and who knows, you may find some. But haven’t we learned that “science” or the opinions of us lowly human beings, who just a few centuries ago were riding horses and writing with feathers are by no means absolute? When it comes to faith, evidence is irrelevant.
Sounds like we have two “prophets” who don’t quite agree on something? 🙂 I guess this one isn’t a big deal…..not like claiming Adam is God or anything! 😉
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409
Just a quick comment about item #4) – semitic names in the Book of Mormon: Here’s a fun one: “Alma.” It means: “young girl” in Hebrew. Try to make sense out of giving a boy that name.
SLB your story so parallels that of my husband and I except we were both born in the church. Leaving was the hardest thing we had ever done. It split our family. Many of them as well as those who were our closest friends and turned against us. A member of the stake presidency called around to different wards we had lived in and told rumors about us. Heartbreaking. Would we go back? Never. Funny thing is we never read any anti mormon literature or talked to anyone who had left the church. We just started studying the bible and reading the History of the Church, learning about polygamy and polyandry and the doctrine of Blood atonement. The game changer for me was when I learned that If I wasn’t following the real Jesus, not a Jesus who was my brother, but the Jesus who helped create me, I would go to hell. The Lord has said you should have no gods before me. That means he is God, always has been God, and has never been a man and no man on earth can ever become God. My eternal salvation depends on knowing the One True God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. If I dont know him, he will spew me out of his mouth.
If the Mormons aren’t worshipping the real God, who are they following? Scary.
As far as it is translated correctly… yes
Okay. I just was not sure, as it appears that your article contradicts central Biblical teachings. Now I am confused as to how you can believe what you claim to know as truth and the Bible. If you can explain, I would appreciate your answer.
What is it that you feel is contradicting the Bible?
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Yep. That would be mitochondrial DNA which can disappear completely from a population within a few hundred years.
“DNA lineages are often lost during the course of evolution, even in short periods of time. Today, no South American native group presents the X [mitochondrial DNA] lineage, which is universal among North American native groups. However, DNA extracted a few years ago from human skeletons from the Brazilian Amazon, dated to only a couple thousand years ago, showed clearly that the X lineage was
present in South America.”
Walter Neves, from Science News, Scientific American, December 13, 2005.
Considering the unreliability of dating techniques, the least accurate data in archaeology is the dating.
It is sad to see all the comments about how many say they have left the Church (LDS). Judas who walk with Christ even lost his testimony. One must ask why? I pray that y’all will find your way back. God Bless
You don’t need to be sad about people who have left. Obviously they are happier out of the church than in it or they would come back. I know I am. The church provides a very tight-knit community, which is why I kept attending for 7 years after I no longer believed. Eventually I found a community that was a better fit for me. If the church still works for you I am happy for you. It is helpful if you actually believe it because non-believers can feel very much like a fish out of water, unable to express themselves for fear of upsetting people or labeled a sinner.
An organization such as you describe does not create an industrious, self-disciplined, reliant and selfless people. It creates Jonestowns.
1a) Then who wrote it and why use Joseph Smith?
1b) These are arguments from silence.
2a) See 1a
3) See 1a
4) See 1a
5) Who? And why use Joseph Smith as the vehicle?
6) Christ never ministered directly to the Gentiles. The plain reading of the Bible makes it clear the other sheep were people Christ was going to see. We don’t have those records yet. We believe they exist. It doesn’t matter anyway. You’d reject them, too.
7) Shoot the Messenger fallacy
8) The Mormon reading of this passage is truer to the actual text.
9) Nope. None of them did. You are factually wrong on this one.
10) Not a very good coverup considering you can still buy original 1830 editions from Deseret Book.
11) My spiritual witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon was not an emotional feeling. It was a physical sensation. I can always trust the empirical truth that a kettle is hot when I feel the heat with my hand.
Really? The LDS church controls every printing press in the world? Oh. Wait, it was published. Which is it?
BTW, BH Roberts was actually tasked with playing devil’s advocate and trying to tear down the Book of Mormon as a way for the church leadership to get an idea of what sorts of attacks they could expect.
To what purpose would it serve those eleven witnesses and Emma Smith to maintain the conspiracy?
Tas it is never safe to assume. Many people I know including myself never had a negative experience in the church, we just used our brains and some criticial thinking, and decided all by ourselves with some credible research and an open mind that a guy who secretly married over 30 young girls and practiced polyandry and has a record of dishonesty should probably not be believed when he claims to be a prophet. occums razor….
Uhm actually assumptions can be good. You literally just made an assumption, hypocritical much? Now generalisations can be bad, which I didn’t do, I logistically and statistically made a deducted assumption, without speaking finitely. So I’m pretty sure I’m safe. Maybe you need to re-read and double check the phrasing I use…
And also that comment wasn’t for you, the world doesn’t revolve around you..
What bothers me more than anything, after reading a lot of these posts, is that so many people NEED some authority to tell them what to believe, how to act, to accept some authority over another, etc. All these faiths are the same. They promise some reward in the afterlife for living a certain way now. It’s like telling a child that they will get a reward if they do their homework first. We should be living “correctly” NOW because, frankly all these promises for the after life are not certain. What is certain is the here and now. What do I mean by correctly….simple do what you KNOW is right…nobody has to tell you or threaten you…..you know…..do unto others as you would have them do unto you! That’s it….no bible…no book of mormon…. no muslim book of faith needed….no promises or threats or deception or faith police…….just you!
I used to believe that too, but there has been ample opportunity to vindicate the Book of Mormon through archaeological findings, DNA, linguistic studies, human migration studies, and many more. So far nothing has been found that definitively supports the Book of Mormon and the likelihood seems to keep diminishing that anything ever will be.
Gayle wrote: ” “The Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of Mormonism.” Gordon B Hinckley, April General Conference, 1998! Check it out”.
Well, I did check it out. It was actually pretty easy. He spoke six times in conference during 1998. He never use the quoted language–not even close. In fact, he never even used the world “bible” during any of those talks He did reject the post-biblical creeds, which should not surprise anyone. Gayle, you now know what you wrote is false. Please admit it so that you don’t deceive people.
April 2002 general conference: As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in
the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ.
I
loved the Book of Mormon too – read it several times a year for many
years. But it is twentieth century religious fiction. Joseph smith wrote
it. Or Plagiarized most of it. In the words of his mother, “Joseph had a
vivid imagination and was a wonderful storyteller.” Paul wrote that we
should not accept another gospel other than that which Jesus
established while upon the earth “even if an angel brings it to you”. He
was prophesying. The mormon church is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
He suffered and died for our sins on the Cross, not in the Garden.
You do realize there is a difference between the Bible and the post-biblical creeds, don’t you?
🙂
What? No one in my family, no one in my circle of friends, and none of my L.D.S. leaders “coached” me regarding my testimony. I worked hard, studied long, and prayed earnestly to know if my belief in Christ and in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was true.
I am weary of you Mormon bashers self-righteously declaring, across the board, that faithful L.D.S. members are “conditioned to believe.” It simply isn’t true. However, when did it ever become a crime to teach ones’ children about Christ? Should faithful L.D.S. parents/family members/friends be vilified for teaching their loved ones about Christ? When did it become such a bad thing to teach your loved ones how to be good people? Why is it bad to lay clear rules for our children at an early age? Don’t we WANT to improve society? Do we just throw caution to the wind and allow our children, who are incapable of making adult decisions, to “choose for themselves?”
I can’t imagine that the Mormon-haters would say that we shouldn’t be teaching our kids and our friends how to live better lives and how to be sure if they’re making good decisions. But I guess you can give it a pathetic shot.
I am a “born in the covenant” member, served a mission, and was married in the temple. I am currently an active member in good standing. I can say uneqivivally the LDS Church does teach young children to say “I know” when they express their testimony. It does the same for adults. If you were to say “I believe” in a testimony other members would wonder what was wrong or think you lacked faith. To pretend that we don’t do this is disingenuous.
Jay, did someone actually TELL you to say “I know?” No one told ME I should say that. So when you say that “the L.D.S. Church does teach young children to say “I know,” where can I go to find that instruction? I was never told what I should say in my testimony in Primary, the Young Women’s program, or in Relief Society. My bishop has never instructed me to say “I know the Church is true.” And, on the other side of that coin, I have actually vocalized my testimony using the words, “I believe the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are true,” and I was not called into my bishop’s office and chastised for my lack of faith. I pretend nothing, and I’m anything but disingenuous in my religious beliefs. Perhaps I’m just a rebel, who uses the term “I believe…” interchangeably with “I know.”
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I’ve been told to use the words “I know” numerous times…especially when I was in training on my mission. It didn’t really bother me until I started meeting people who used the same exact words to testify against what I was teaching. Then I realized that the words do not adequately describe what my testimony is. Now I make a conscious effort to avoid phrases like “I know the [church, Book of Mormon, Phrophet, etc] is true.” Instead I try and describe my testimony with things that I have actually experienced.
There lies the problem, you don’t understand the difference between belief and knowledge.
dallin oaks taught that a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it indeed he said it is astonishing but true. this same theory was earlier taught by the late boyd packer. this is even worse than teaching kids to say i know. just repeatedly bear your testimony until you receive it? whats the point of moroni 10:4 then?????
I actually teach the members that we should be honest in our testimonies. If we/they know that something is true because the Holy Ghost has revealed it to us then so testify. If you only believe that something is true then say that you believe it. If you have only faith in a doctrine then say that. We should always be very aware that there is this commandment that says:” Thou shalt not bare false witness”. Just before she left for her mission, I even urged my daughter to remember this and never to testify of something she has no testimony of. Honesty is the only way. The good thing I find about all these attacks on the church is that they make me study each and every one of them and I always come out stronger. They actually make my testimonies stronger.
Even then, they’re still “feeling” it’s true not “knowing.” A secondary testimony (ever through the Holy Ghost, it’s a secondary thing) still isn’t concrete.
I haven’t had this experience. Because there are many things I don’t know. This also contradicts almost entirely with Alma 32. Some things in this life will only be a belief. You won’t know for a certainty. Having said that I do believe some members of the church culturally do as you say, but we are human and sinners. The doctrine is true, but He only has us members to work with
I agree 100% with GP, I have never been instructed that way either Jay
Jay-I am a bishop and I am extremely impressed with the honest reply or testimony of those that say “I believe” and then exercise that belief by their actions. In fact when I speak with my youth in interviews I always explain to them that it is okay if they cant say they “know”. I certainly wasn’t able to at their age. A testimony begins with DESIRE, and then BELIEF. Alma 32 explains this process very well. 12 of the 13 articles of faith begin with “We Believe”. IF….someone wants to strengthen that belief or even challenge it, then it takes action. If someone wants to know the B of M is true, read it! If someone wants to know if tithing is a true principle, try it! John 17:7 also explains this process. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” Too many are caught wondering IF or WHAT is true, but yet lack the effort (faith) to put it to the test. I absolutely love it when I hear any youth or any other member say “I believe” because it tells me that they want to know, and are willing to put forth the effort to find out. It is impossible to “know” without a desire that eventually can lead to belief. Having said that….”I know independent of anyone or anything else”. I earned that through an ongoing process of faith, experience, study and an extreme amount of prayer. And no…in my ward, there is no parent taking a young child to the podium whispering in their ears. This practice that was once perhaps commonplace has been discouraged by the brethren (by an official letter read over the pulpit signed by the first presidency) for many years now. It isn’t the place or the proper way to build testimony. Belief is great and can be strengthened through faith by obedience to the principles and commandments of God.
Maybe people tell their kids to say that, but the CHURCH does not teach people to do that. A testimony IS a statement of what we know. We simply taught our children to share whatever they felt they knew. When they were young, it was things like, “I know my mom and dad love me. I feel good when I do what is right.” Over time, that knowledge grew. As they saw the benefits of service, they could testify about that knowledge. And when they finally gained a testimony for themselves that the Book of Mormon was true, they could share that. Not all of my children have come to that understanding yet and we don’t want them to ever say it unless and until they do.
It’s not coaching, it’s conditioning. It’s an environment where children have the words “I know the church is true” whispered into their ears during their early recitations of their testimonies and the testimonies members are encouraged to bear are, to an extent, formulaic in that they almost always contain the exact same phrase, even as adults. Every member is encouraged to build and maintain a testimony. Anything less than certainty is considered a challenge to be overcome. Losing one’s testimony is mourned. Few other churches even have the concept of bearing testimony – encouraging members to make these formalized bold statements of conviction.
I’m not saying these beliefs are any less genuine than other faiths, but they are also not any *more* genuine either. Members of the LDS church have just adopted a vocabulary and mindset of certainty that other churches have largely not duplicated despite having very similar emotional and spiritual experiences to support their faith choice.
This isn’t Mormon bashing. I love Mormons. I’m married to one. Most of my children and friends are mormons. Disagreeing with you or criticizing an aspect of your Church is not about hate.
To know so much about Mormons certainly you know it was more than 10 years ago that it was said again to not bring your children up and coach them to say anything. A testimony is personal and isn’t recitation. I have never whispered in my child’s ears to have them say they know the church is true. You generalize over 15 million people by declaring that you know what “Mormons do”. I have been a member of over 20 wards in my lifetime (of 42 yrs). One thing is the same in all of them, the people are all individuals with their own mindset, not a shared one. When I declare I know it is because I do. I no longer hope and years of wonder and doubt has been taken through many years of searching, converting, and experiencing. I won’t guess to know your mind, but don’t attempt to tell me mine.
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It’s not official coaching they are referring to. It’s a cultural aspect indoctrinated into the religion and processions. I am not Mormon but have been to the church for many many occasions. And I have witnessed first hand, the conditioning that is being referenced. It is a major part of the culture and experiences in the church. I’ve heard a small child say “I know the church is true” so many times, without having any concept of what ‘true’ really is. It is quite a disturbing practice in my eyes.
Are you kidding? If that was said about not conditioning you kids testimony many many many did not get the message. Oh yea it happens with prayers too.
I have one more question for you, Matt. Do you make it a habit to point out what you believe to be faults in every religion? Do you search out conversations regarding the Catholic, Protestant, Muslim and other religions and proceed to tell them how narrow-minded and gullible they ALL are? Do you regularly accuse those who love their religion of conditioning their family members to believe. I ask, because I believe that most religious people will tell you that, yes, they do encourage their children and loved ones to believe a certain way. I think that’s what religion is all about…I mean, when you break it down to the bare minimum.
When I speak of Mormon bashing and Mormon hating, I think we both know that those people are out there…in numbers. Since I don’t know you, I cannot assume anything about you, but I have seen some very nasty, even threatening conversations in social media and other places about Mormons. These conversations certainly are not about love, but, amazingly, some anti-Mormons use the guise of love. I have seen conversations that appeared to be started in the name of love turn very, very nasty and hateful. I passionately defend my beliefs, but when I’ve done so with certain people, I’ve been accused of being angry or fearful. And talk about conditioning…anti-Mormon folks are famous for their common, well-worn rhetoric. That has been my experience.
I love the L.D.S. Church. I love Jesus Christ. Good, honest, men and women have died while defending their beliefs, and I can understand, now, why they did. So, of course I don’t like it when people “dog” the L.D.S. Church. Who would like that?
I tell you, I know from experience, that the teachings of the L.D.S. Church work for me. I believe they are true. I am thankful for the guidance they provide for me and my family. If I’m living a good life – the best I possibly can – and if I’ve taught my children to be good, honest people, and they’ve grown up to be just that, how can I accept someone telling me, and others like me, that we’ve been doing it all wrong?
Hmm, weird that people think you’re angry, I didn’t get that at all.
All religions are inherently evil.
Michelle, define ‘evil’.
Anything fear-based. Any religion that professes they are the only way and any other way will lead you to hell. Any religion that teaches heaven or hell. Any religion asking you to obey without question-to question is excommunication. Any religion that has you recite certain secret phrases and gestures, etc, to get into heaven. These are the evils I believe Michelle is speaking about.
I just spent last evening in a Catholic Church playing my violin in Haydn’s Seven Last Words of Christ during which seven ministers of seven different churches expounded on each of the seven statements Christ made as He hung on the cross. From my vantage point of sitting in the orchestra, I could see the expressions on the faces of many people and noted those who were moved by statements that sounded very much like the things taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. These are the same things that moved me. Truth resonates no matter where it is spoken and by whom. And all these pastors are good people striving to do good things. No one in the LDS faith is taught that these exemplary people who choose to try to lift people up, or any of their congregation, are lost. As a young missionary I learned this analogy. The gospel Jesus taught is like a beautiful mirror in which you can see things as they really are. When Jesus died, and one by one his disciples were martyred, that mirror became fractured as many precious parts of Jesus’ teachings were lost or fragmented. If you just read the Bible, you will find some of the pieces of that mirror but thankfully Heavenly Father loved us enough to give us a new one called the Book of Mormon which, like the Bible, also testifies of Christ, of his teachings, his birth, life, death and resurrection and how to organize His church as he had done anciently. Even though the plates from which the Book of Mormon came were engraved during the time of Jeremiah through the death of the apostles, they were meant to come forth in our day to establish the truth of the Bible and to bring people to a knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World. As I watched hundreds of people last evening be moved at the mention of His Name, His teachings and the gems of truth from His chosen people recorded in the Bible, I saw the connection they all seemed to feel to this Man who loved each of us enough to pay our debts and advocate for us before the Father. I’ve heard our own church general authorities say much the same thing and listened to them invite those who recognize these feelings as coming from God to listen to the missionaries to see if we can add to that more good things, acknowledging that what they have is good an like a host at a feast, offering them more. That is what we do. We truly desire the happiness of all.
Matt, I didn’t grow up in the church but was baptized at 19. No doubt there is “conditioning” or teaching as we call it. All good parents teach their children what they believe are good things and maybe when they are young the children do parrot that in their testimonies, but at some time in their lives, they get to the point where they come to their own testimony for themselves.
True. If we don’t teach our kids, who will? Tv? Movies? I would never want my kids to mimic the values in Hollywood. (Not everything is bad but most is in my opinion).
It makes me laugh when people say we brainwash our kids. Yep, it’s called teaching and it’s done every day thru school, media, etc.
If this is brainwashing…..then wash away and add some more soap!!
Teaching your kids that a random guy living in the 1800’s was summoned to some golden plates and he translated the plates using a stone in his hat and now we all need to worship what he wrote is definitely brainwashing.
The most heart breaking thing he did was take the wife of a Henry Jacobs , a faithful Mormon , not only was his wife taken by Joseph Smith but also by Brigham Young. This marriage never had a chance . This is what he wrote his wife, you can feel his heart broken but what do you care you are a zealot zombie
letter
Henry returned from his mission and settled in California. But he was still in love with his wife Zina, now a plural wife of Brigham Young. Henry’s letters to his wife Zina were heartrending. On 2 September 1852 he wrote: “O how happy I should be if I only could see you and the little children, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh.” “I am unhappy,” Henry lamented, “there is no peace for poor me, my pleasure is you, my comfort has vanished…. O Zina, can I ever, will I ever get you again, answer the question please.” In an undated Valentine he added:
Zina my mind never will change from Worlds without Ends, no never, the same affection is there and never can be moved I do not murmur nor complain of the handlings of God no verily, no but I feel alone and no one to speak to, to call my own. I feel like a lamb without a mother, I do not blame any person or persons, no–May the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham and all purtains unto him forever. Tell him for me I have no feelings against him nor never had, all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our god Joseph [Smith].” (“Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs” By Ora J. Cannon).
Lets see, who should I listen to, matt or go? Continue teaching my kids to be good people and follow Jesus Christ, or drop it because matt says its false? Wonder what Jesus would say???
The “truth” you profess to your children come from a man of questionable character. They mimic the bible while straying from the oiginal context.
Jesus Christ has ‘questionable character’? Huh???
You make it sound as if being LDS and being “good people” are inseparable. There are “good” LDS people and their are non-LDS “good people” in the world. Wouldn’t you agree?
I guess that’s how you have enough faith to offer up even your only son, to be certain. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Actually all the religions of the world and that includes the LDS are given color glasses by the chairman of the board Luci (2 Cr 4:4),so no matter what you see ,it is going to give you the color of the glasses no matter how intelectual or intelligent you may be When Jesus of the Bible reveals the Father to you (Matt 11:27; Luk 10:22)and the colored glasses come off and the truth sets you free (John 8:32
Unfortunately you are using too much logic. The adversary distorts logic. Like Greg said most folks haven’t even read the Book of Mormon or even know why they hate this religion. Even the one comment from a gentleman who has read the Book spoke in platitudes with not one specific.
Faith upsets the wicked
Hope upsets the wicked
Charity upsets the wicked
Christ upsets the wicked
Logic goes out the window,
“Faith upsets the wicked. Hope upsets the wicked. Charity upsets the wicked. Christ upsets the wicked. Logic goes out the window.”
Yeah. I know. What a pity.
Logic is of man and some think that the philosophies of man may have gotten into some religions so that a return to the apostolic church was needed. During the Restoration period or the Second Great Awakening of which Ralph Waldo Emerson is eminent and from which Joseph Smith emanated whole congregations joined the LDS church which of course caused alarms to paid pastors or Pastors with “a living”. Same in England when Wilford Woodruff found the fields ripe and ready to harvest.
Hardly a surprise that they found inoculating their congregations against listening to the missionaries a good idea. Generationally and institutionally taught “proofs” or truisms that are of the 16th century mindset.
Logic demands a more scientific method and viewing of all points and “proofs” and no preconceived mantras or outcome based on selected or created data/facts.
you don’t weary of it, you thrive in it, thats why you are participating in this thread, if you truly did weary of it, don’t read & respond to people who oppose your view
Mormon haters? Mormon bashers? Self-Righteous? You label those people that think and believe differently like this and then in the very same paragraph that you state that you are simply trying to teach loved one’s about Christ, about being good people, teaching clear rules, and improve society. I would love to sit back and watch you teach your kids lessons about Christ using the words that you just used when describing others that believe differently. Mormons don’t own the patent on doing good things and being a good person. This has to be the case because there are only 5 million active members on the earth. That leaves a whole lot of other people out there that do a lot of good things. I will say this though, “The good things about the church are not unique, but the unique things about the church are not good (Polygamy, curse of Cain, etc.)”.
Curse of Cain was a common belief in at least some of Western Christianity but Black Irish saved the Bible in one darkened time of 500 years.
Polygamy was not allowed in B of m only to raise a righteous seed. So see what a believer can come up with. if God at head of the Church (and influence in others as when any two meet in his name -this just me not church talking-then that and the real truth, what historically DID happen, God being ruler of the universe?
The polygamy practiced by the early church was to be no sparkifying according to Brigham Young (Think Abner Hale with many Jerusha’s) The children raised by the well to do and very strong believers have been in the leadership of the church since inception. One western writer stated that romantic love was absent in polygamy (no duh? unless serially like modern American polygamy-divorce the old, bring in the new?)
By their fruits indeed. B H Roberts was okay and defended polygamy at the beginning and took one day before got witness and belief in its ending.
Hugh Nibley and B H Roberts have studied all sides and hidden nothing for doctrinal or belief promotion that i know of unlike those who have systematically destroyed manuscripts of the Book of Enoch for example.
Conditioning comes in a lot of forms. You were absolutely conditioned to believe. Sorry.
A better way to express would be you appear to be conditioned…
You’re in denial about the coaching. The entire LDS culture provides a social and religious reward for saying just the right things. If you’re in agreement with those things, fine, but to deny any coaching means either a serious misunderstanding of the word, absolute ignorance of the faith, or a complete delusional view of your own religion. Take a step back with a sincere eye for absolute truth and at some point you’ll recognize you’ve been coached all along.
you are right Dominique, . Many churches teach truths, but either one church is “in total” the gospel of Jesus Christ as he taught it, or none of them are completely correct. The question for you to figure out is “which one?” I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints and I guess that tells you which one I have decided on. There are a lot of well meaning churches and good people out there. And we do not condemn them, we just don’t believe they have the fullness of the gospel which we feel is a great blessing in our lives. That is why we love to share the gospel. Being a Christian, I can tell you that anyone from any church can have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Even someone who has never joined with any church. But there are covenants that a person must enter into with the Father, and ordinances that must be done by someone with authority from God. That is why it is important to know which church is truly the Lord’s church, teaching his gospel, set up as he did his church while here on earth and his elders given authority to perform the ordinances. God bless as I hope you look for those answers. Your statement about so many contradicting “truths” It was the question Joseph Smith had at the age of 13. “Which church was true” and his prayer to God to know the answer.
So was it the washroom cleaning program that convinced you or was it the several versions of the first vision, perhaps the fact that Gods profit bought the phony Hoffman papers,then again it may have been the secret temple hand signals because God is a bad ass gang member and if you don’t flash the signals your not going to Kolob.This authority you speak of is that the holy penishood which for some reason was restored after the church so how much authority is really required to do Gods work.If all joe smith required was a rock and his hat why the need for the so called Gold plates. Interestingly enough God requires apologists to answer the many questions because his so called profit does not seem to have a clue neither does God when viewed through the prism of Mormonism in fact if you believe the church is true then sad to say but your “nuttier than Squirrel shit”
Now quit wasting time here and get that bathroom cleaned down at a local chapel where the chances are slim to none that you will ever see a member of the 1st pres.apostles and other GH (General Hustlers) show up on a Sat morning to clean….and don’t forget your magic under wear because God really cares about your underwear.
Are you only this hostile to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, or is it all churches? I don’t believe what a lot of other churches believe, but I respect their right to believe how they want and I can respect them for living their lives accordingly. PS. this is my week to clean and I do it willingly. This allows the church to use funds for more meaningful causes like the welfare of the needy and world charity.
His vitriol, I imagine, is very similar to what Alma the Younger spouted so it’s best to leave him to his filth. We will all be on one knee one day, including Captain Kolob.
Strange. Do you mock Jewish prayer shawls or Muslim religious wear. Would it surprise you to know laths one of the earliest know religions, Zoroastrians also have religiously significant white underpinnings?
Hard to place you as a Jesus Hater or Hater for Jesus. Usually the Jesus haters are more generalized in their rants.
Get this. In America, the land of freedom and equality and PC feel goodism, the media which wouldn’t vet obama, the unknown, or tell even what a community organizer was or a liberation Church, puts religiously significant underwear of Mitt the Mormon on TV. Even though i know because charity, of the pure love of Christ isn’t easily offended and in a debate the last offended wins, this offends me as an American.
Can we expect nothing as Americans? Or will the entire herd start listening for the voice of the shepherd/ gotta stay out of Caesar’s politics id do but then who drives history? Today’s politics = tomorrow’s history.
I suppose the wise tread lightly?
Ann –
81 years of age… I don’t know if there is anything I can tell you. I’m sure I could learn many things from you. The Lord told Joseph Smith that his name would be known for good and evil throughout the entire world. We now know that it has happened. The Book of Mormon is what it is. You get to read it and determine whether it is true or not. With Joseph Smith, it’s a lot more complicated. There are lots of accounts from people that say he was one of the greatest people they’d ever known. Then there are other people that will say he was a villain. How can any of us know how he really was because there are so many conflicting stories…but isn’t that how it is with every notable figure in History. Americans really loved George Washington but the British hated him. The North really loved Lincoln but the South had all kinds of wild stories about him. Jewish converts had nothing but admiration for Christ but the Pharisees considered him a lunatic, a mad man, and a fake. The fact that you are praying for truth is awesome! I do believe that God answers prayers!
Let me know how your search goes!
Awesome post!
Greg
Look at it this way–all of the anti-Joseph Smith writers disagree among themselves…
Some say he was a lazy vagabond, others an obsessive power-hungry maniac. Some describe his morality as puritanical, others as an amoral deviant. Some anti-mormons say he was a genius, and others a hopeless and ignorant fraud.
BOTTOM LINE: as soon as they hear stories of visions and revelations, they make up their mind, and compose the first conclusion they can find to support the idea that he was not a prophet, because if he was, then they have to deal with the consequences of the Restoration. The credible, rational, and open-minded evidence backs up the amazing greatness of a chosen prophet of God. I am so grateful for the truth restored through the prophet Joseph Smith, that has helped me to find Christ and His Church.
I was LDS 60 years. I thought I had a very strong testimony. Mission, Temple Marriage two sons Temple Marriage, I always firmly believed in the LDS Church.
I decided to take it to the next step and pray like never before. I only read the Book of Mormon, PoGP, D&C. I prayed and prayed. Two years. I got so close to what I thought was God. I could hear Mormon and Moroni talking to me as I read the Book of Ether. But it left me with confusion. I went deeper in prayer. I decided to read the New Testament. Then clarity. The words I read did not confirm LDS at all. They spoke of a different Jesus Christ. One who could Dwell in my heart (not D&C 130). They made clear that the Father and the Son can dwell in our heart. That we can clothe ourselves in the Full Armor of God.
Doing this my testimony grew much stronger in God. The one true God. I overcame sins I had fought throughout my life. I became a far more loving husband and man. My perspective on life is completely different
I understand not I was under the strong delusion spoken of in the New Testament. That the “Holy Ghost” I thought was testifying was that strong delusion. There are so many in different faiths who have a testimony. Yet Jesus said if I testify of myself do not believe me. A testimony is not proof of anything. Testing against the bible is proof. LDS fails that test miserably. Think did the Jews in Book of Mormon act like Jews in the Bible. No they acted like 19th century Christians. How would that be possible if the book were real? Not one Feast Day mentioned in the Book of Mormon or any other thing Jewish.
Had to comment. You said you read “only” the Book of Mormon, PoGP, D&C. Why would you starve yourself from the Bible? Nowhere has the church ever claimed to be self-sufficient without the Old and New Testaments. Have you ever read Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage, and you want to claim the LDS church teaches a “different Christ” than the Bible? If you take good from the LDS church while claiming its untrue you’re deceiving yourself.
“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matt 12:24)
Thus if you presume that Joseph Smith was a prophet, what follows him must be the truth. If you consider Joseph Smith a fraud than nothing after him can be of value and must be considered evil, per Christ. Also, “testing against the Bible is proof”, I submit that this is false. Testing with the Spirit is proof, testing against the Bible as you said is personal opinion from your own interpretation of what you believe the text is saying. Thus if you see a difference in the teachings between the Bible and the Book of Mormon and decide to rule out the Book of Mormon, you’re doing it solely on the basis of your own opinion.
“Think did the Jews in the Book of Mormon act like Jews in the Bible” – Which “Jews” are you comparing them to? Because any similarity with “Jews” in the Bible after the year 600 B.C. would not exist. The authors of the Book of Mormon weren’t writing a personal journal of their wins/loses, they weren’t cataloging their parties (Feast Days as you said). They were writing:
” 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.” (2 Nephi 25:26-27)
I’m happy that you’ve grown closer to your Savior, that’s wonderful. But all that stuff you said about the Book of Mormon is unsubstantiated nonsense.
Thomas, “So far…every end-of-the-world scenario ever predicted has turned out to be wrong.”
I would even go so far as stating that so far, everything in the future hasn’t occurred yet. =)
The evidence is there and more is forthcoming. However, the “evidence” will always be debatable even when there. The fruits are the evidence and in a way so are you, in regards to verse I referenced earlier.
I have no clue what you are talking about. I am not sure if we are using the same definition of “evidence.” Words in a made up book are not evidence. I might as well start arguing by appealing to Harry Potter. I don’t think we are communicating. I am sure you will reply because you have to have the last word, but this will be my last post. Good luck with your preparations for the end of the world. I hope that all works out for you. I prefer to live in the real world, but I don’t mind people believing what they want as long as it does not hurt anyone else.
How were you born into the covent and a convert? Most people who are born under the convent have both parents that are members who were sealed in the temple.
Do you really have no idea that ALL people must convert? My parents were sealed in the temple, that afforded me the sealing power to THEM, but it didn’t give me a testimony. They took me to church but that did not grant me a changing of my own heart. I was sealed in the temple as an adult, AFTER I sought to know for myself if the gospel was true. I had to question, I had to pray, I had to read, I had to study, and I even had to make many mistakes and learn about repentance. Read King Benjamin’s speech, it’s a mighty change of heart, he wasn’t speaking to those who had never had the gospel, he spoke to those who had been taught their entire lives. If you are not a convert, you should be. That conversion process is important to know for yourself what is true. I am happy to be a convert, I don’t want my kids to take my word for it, I want them to have their own conversion.
Jmay…I, too, was born under the covenant, but wasn’t converted until the age of 50. My conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ came after many years of investigating other religions; getting discouraged; then many more years of unhappiness. I found pure Joy when I came back to the LDS Church, humbled and needing to KNOW for a certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the same gospel taught by Christ. In order to receive this confirmation, I had to first forgive myself for my sins, as well as, the others who had wronged me. that’s when I felt my saviors love and forgiveness…That’s when I KNEW the church was true. This revelation came when I went to the temple for the first time. So, you can be a member for a lifetime before you receive your “witness”, or you can know when you are baptized… conversion is a very personal experience.
Sorry Im Jewish Mormons are nice people but the book of Mormon is a total fraud not a true word in it simple
I completely disagree Paul. Have you read the Book of Mormon all the way through? If you haven’t, then that is blind intolerance to make those kind of statements.
I challenge you to read it then….with an open mind and heart. With no distractions from what you have heard about it. I’ve gone through the conversion process myself. I’ve turned away from the church during a dark time in my life but I always found that the harder I tried to say it wasn’t true, the harder my life became. The second I surrendered to what I KNEW to be true, my life smoothed out. The Lord has had to beat me over the head with a baseball bat at times but I have come to the conclusion that it’s my stubbornness and pride that gets in my own way.
Everyone needs to be converted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ…and usually the ones who have the hadest time “converting” are those born into the chuch…..I left the church and searched for YEARS fo the “Truth”…..
just because someone is born to parents in a church does not make them a legacy, if they are not living the word of God then learn the gospel and have faith in Jesus then they are converted
We are all converts. Everyone’s conversion is different. I was Baptized at the age of 8 and my conversion would take on 16 years after that.
There is a huge difference between being born in the covenant and being converted. You may have been born into an LDS family but you have to go through the conversion process on your own. I remember how shocked members were in my ward when my, at that time, 16 year old son got up and bore his testimony. He said he wasn’t sure the Book of Mormon was true or that the LDS faith was true. He said he had to study it out on his own and not rely on his parent’s testimonies. I’ve never been more proud of him than at that moment. He did study on his own and about a year later stood and bore his testimony again, proclaiming that he knew words in the Book of Mormon were true and that he had faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.
True as in what? That it is a book? That it is historically factual? That it is allegory that teaches correct principles, so we can govern ourselves? D&C Section 129 makes it expressly clear inner feelings are not an administration from God and that ONLY physical encounters like the one Joseph Smith had in the Sacred Grove are. The BOM gives the reader a comparative value between the Laws of Moses and Old Testament Law and that of the new and everlasting covenant. In trying to determine if he should kill Laban, Nephi get two opposite feelings; one is interpreted as a prompting to spare Laban and then the next moment changes that his is justified in killing Laban. In Ether 8:19, the reader learns that Nephi was deceived by killing Laban and that the philosophy, “It is better that one man should die rather than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief” is false. Any story with characters minus last names is highly suspect when considering historical accuracy. It just like the Old Testament claiming Pharaoh did a terrible thing yet the name of the Pharaoh is conspicuously missing from the tale, to detour investigation of the claim. One has to also take into account the New Testament is quoted in the BOM timeline before it was even written. And most compelling of all is the fact that statements like “I have seen YOUR day and know your doing” and “Liken the scriptures unto yourself, for YOUR profit and learning.” are given. Mosiah Chapter 11 is a clear warning to the LDS about a situation they would find themselves in because they subscribe to patriarchal rule and its illogical rules of succession. One might ask themselves, why would God allow King Noah and his hand picked wicked priests to succeed a righteous man at the helm and led the people into the practice of polygamy and focus the efforts of the church on building an empire of mammon? God didn’t allow it and couldn’t interfere with the Free Agency of man or else he would be promoting the philosophy of Lucifer presented in the War in Heaven. That is why the D&C says the church must be ruled by the Law of Common Consent, which means the leaders must do what the majority votes on rather than the members doing the bidding of the leaders. We all know this is simply NOT the case these days of excommunication witch hunts of those who remind the leaders how the early church was originally established. Is this a reflection that the BOM is “true” and the church is not? Another clue lies in the 1833 Edition of the Book of Commandments, which clearly state the ONLY task given to Joseph Smith was to translate the1/3 unsealed portion of the book. So one has to wonder how the church came about after the rejection of the ideology of the United Order. Until the members start giving heed and diligence to the messages presented in the BOM of wonder, they will never qualify themselves to receive the 2/3 sealed portion of the plates. I would suggest reading the 1st chapter of Isaiah, since he is the only prophet the BOM readers are commanded to give heed. What Isaiah has to say about organized religion isn’t too glowing. One might also refresh themselves on how Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law invented the religion Moses gave the people after they rejected the first laws he tried to get them to embrace. Remember, the BOM says Joseph Smith would be “one like unto Moses”.
I will reply as I left after 60 long years.
Firstly my love goes out to all in the Church. I have attended throughout the country and always felt welcomed. As long as in conformed with the beliefs. Not so much when I thought for myself. The disapproval of that was not hidden well. Not that they were mean they just made it clear conformance was more or less required. Regardless when I left none were ever mean to me in any way.
Perhaps he left disillusioned with religion. I did not.
I actually believe that Joseph was 100% correct when he said all religions are an abomination in the eyes of God. I do not believe in any. But I firmly believe in the One True God. The Bible. I love all of it. It is consistent from front to back. There is no new gospel taught by Jesus. Jesus teaches the Old Testament. After all that is all He had to teach from. All the Apostles had.
I go on the internet and search for truth. Christian and Hebrew Roots comes very close to the truth that is taught in the bible. My relationship with the one true God is much stronger than it ever was before.
I do not write this out of hate. Not at all. I am thankful for my years as LDS. I learned much of the truth of who God really is. But it is not complete. I grew to hate the LDS saying. “Is it really necessary to know that for your salvation”. I now know when that is said it most definitely is necessary to know. Through God I have no questions left unanswered. I know I will be married to my wife. One with Her when I become one with the Father as Jesus is.
When someone ask. Is it necessary to know. Just say yes. The Father will answer if you just open your mind to Him.
But even the Bible was written by men, and put together by
men, why does everyone act like the Bible was written by God himself, and the BOM was written by Joseph Smith. The Bible had faults, books left out, changes made, so did the BOM. All this arguing seems ridiculous, just read whatever, pray about it, find your testimony. There is no need for going around trying to rip others beliefs from them, that’s terrible.
Not one thing you mention is searching for a testimony before your mission. You gave lip service without a testimony. That’s really sad. All my young life I challenged everything. I broke every rule I didn’t think made sense.
How very sad that you didn’t ask before you got married and had children and then led them away.
I asked, I already know, I continue to ask questions and continue to find answers.
Thanks Rick for your thoughtful response! I’ll check it out…
Thanks!
I read this quote today from Denver Snuffer and it reminded me of this post and all the discussion it generated.
“God can do great things in plain sight. He can send a prophet, restore an ancient record by miraculous means; provide witnesses who saw the plates and handled them, even provide an angelic witness of the record’s authenticity; yet, we can reject all these God-given proofs and insist science is a better way to determine the truth of all things. And through rather shaky suppositions, we build a contrary argument which allows us to reject God’s offering and proofs given us.
God is not unwilling to give us proofs. But we ignore His proofs and choose others. As we do, we surrender the only thing which can actually bring us peace in this life.”
Nice!
where did you find truth? Convert me?
Seems you have a magic book of talks and quotes that support your hatred. I hope it keeps you company.
Oh basically. I get it. He basically said it so I can have it mean anything I want it to. I am reminded why it is so important to search on my own. It is this that allows me to have no doubt that Gordon B Hinckley was a prophet of God. It also allows me to feel great peace in seeing the difference between lies and truth. I can thank you for one thing, you remind me what an amazing blessing it is to have this gospel in my life. I am a different person because of it and I’m rather amazing
Having read interviews and her direct writing is say it is overly kind to think she is spurred on by anything other than a quest for power that isn’t to be had for demand or money. Having listened directly to her and read her words I am very comfortable as dismissing her from
My concerns
Umm. Duh. Of course salvation is only through Christ. The church doesn’t teach anything but that.
I’m comfortable answering for my actions. We will all meet Christ someday and he will judge all of us. May he judge us with the same standard that we have extended to others. Of course all members of all churches and those outside of a church will need to answer but others sins do not justify my own
Chris, you are awesome. I’m guessing, in or out of the. Church, you and I would be friends, or at least golfing buddies.
Over the past few years I have learned things about the first vision, the origins of the Book of Mormon, Moroni’s visits to Joseph, more details on polygamy and polyandry (don’t open that door unless you are ready for some faith-shaking experiences that will cause you to question if Joseph really was a prophet or not…I don’t believe he was any longer), etc. As I study Christianity and really focus my studies on Jesus Christ, I am coming to the conclusion that the LDS Church, while wonderful in their values, principles, and lifestyle, is not the only true Church, and that truth really can be found everywhere. I have as many spiritual experiences at Dodger games as I used to at Church. It’s the same feeling…Getting on a plane now, so more later. Let’s keep this going, my friend!
Ed
Because you cannot reconcile your faith with a preponderance of existing evidence does not mean the rest of us are unable. Agnostic merely means undecided or unconvinced, dubious if you will. There is no way for me to prove anything religious to another person, regardless of “evidence” for or against. They have to try it on for themselves. Maybe it fits, maybe they decide to go another way.
You like science, probably because its binary. Correct or incorrect, valid or invalid, verifiable or devoid of evidence. With your intellect you try to apply these characteristics to religion and most times fail. Upon failing you deem the religious unverifiable and therefore invalid. Unfortunately science can only seek understanding within our sphere of influence. Anything outside our “sphere” is also outside of our comprehension. Matters of faith are frequently in this realm of existence. We are only able to test the “fruits” or effects of principle for validity. For example, you cannot prove to me that the power of God does not exist. But I could point out many examples of individuals who radically changed based solely on a religious (divine) experience. You would be hard-pressed to prove that the Priesthood (power to act in the name of God) is invalid, yet I’ve personally experienced it. You probably apply faith (which leads to understanding) properly in many other aspects of your life, its only when you approach religious matters you discard it as unfounded or illegitimate.
Once again, you lack of confirming experiences do not limit others’. Thus your presumption that because you’re not able to reconcile your faith with your understanding that we must all be Agnostic is unfounded and illegitimate.
Being Agnostic is an acknowledgement that you do not know the nature of the divine, or whether or not it even exists. Not acknowledging that fact only makes you intellectually dishonest to yourself, which is a choice that you are more than welcome to make.
And I don’t view the divine as invalid just because I acknowledge that it’s presently unverifiable. That’s your assumption. I did mention that I’m a Pantheist…perhaps you missed that. And you’re right, I can’t prove to you that the power of God doesn’t exist, but you cannot, currently, prove to me that it does. And you certainly can’t prove to me that you’re following the one faith that truly understands the nature of the divine. That’s the part that irritates me the most…religious people who not only claim definite knowledge of a creator of everything, but think that they actually understand the nature of that creator. You don’t, period. This isn’t even up for debate.
And then, (Christians are lumped into this too), the followers of Christ think that all they have to do is acknowledge him and say some magic words, and that’s their path to salvation. Christ (if you believe the story) went into the desert for 40 days and fasted, and found his salvation. That’s some serious stuff. You don’t get salvation by just copying off His sheet. Find it yourself.
Also, there is much scientific evidence to be found that points to the possibility of a creator, and I certainly don’t mind for scientists to follow those leads. I’ve also had divine or supernatural experiences, but that just means that there are things that we don’t understand yet, and maybe cannot understand on this plane of existence. It doesn’t mean that some convicted criminal who claims to have seen stones and writings that no one else saw is anything more than a con artist.
BTW, I like Mormons. As a group, some of the most consistently friendly people I’ve ever met. I just am saddened for them because they are so clearly following the writings of a fraudulent person, and seem unable to see it.
Greg,
I really appreciate what you are trying to do here. With all the negative press the LDS church has been getting, it’s refreshing to see someone posting some positive things.
I’ve read a few of your posts and I unfortunately disagree with your logic. Your logic is the same that I’ve seen many people recite; “if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church of Christ.” This is just not sound logic. There is nearly 200 years in our history…plenty of time for the church that Joseph established to have gone astray. Even those who knew the prophet personally, and participated in the establishment of the LDS church at times claimed he was a fallen prophet after he translated the Book of Mormon. Let me be clear…I believe in the LDS church. But have never agreed with that logic that I’ve heard parroted so many times. Let the Book of Mormon stand on it’s own. It is part of coming to a testimony of the LDS church…a powerful part. But only a part.
I don’t feel that way in at all, in response to your first question. Think about my response, try to listen and apply, then you will get my meaning behind it. I apologize, text can be sometimes difficult to interpret tone. Disagreements are fine in my book. Tact is where I cast the judgment I did. Just like when you read the Bible, especially the accounts of Christ, you are able to judge the good from the bad. Christ’s words and stories I can see the good in. With many of these opponents (and even supporters) it is easy to see the dark/bad coming from them. Does that makes sense? Again, I apologize for my lack of ability to articulate all my points via internet messaging…. I am sure you understand. I have to add – please don’t be so naive to buy into the idea that Mormons are not Christians. It is absurd, we are just as Christian as anyone else. If you think we aren’t, then you do not know or understand the definition of a Christian. There is even a book, “Are Mormons Christians?” that you might find helpful. Or you can just look at our doctrine, that might be easier. And if you think the Bible never contradicts, you have not read it. I believe the Bible, but I have come across countless contradictions. Do I let it discredit the Bible? No. Should you? No, but it is naive again to believe the book is flawless. If only we could have a pow-wow, then I could show you these contradictions and together we could work out why they shouldn’t destroy our faith in the word. If you think the BOM does not line up on all accounts, then again, you have not read it. I’d be open to discuss further, just maybe somewhere other than Greg’s blog comments?
I take it you aren’t much of a people person… Do you prefer animals? That’s okay, it is your preference and right as a human being to feel that way. You should try being more cordial with humans, even if they are doing something that you are not interested in. Have you ever eaten at a restaurant? Has a waiter ever suggested a meal you did not want? Do you antagonize waiters because they engage regularly in this conduct?
I have plenty of people in my life who feel similar to your friend in #2. I pity them. I know they haven’t thought things through entirely. They miss the big picture. They need help, they need love, they need a friend or someone to talk to who will listen and help them through it. I’ve seen this, a lot. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a real problem. So I get that they feel that way, even though the mentality is irrational or unfair in my mind. I wish I knew the silver bullet solution.
That’s part of the “what.”
If the manner of some of these people parallels your version of Christ, well then I’d say one of us is off…. I don’t even know why I am responding to your comment, really.
“Not of the fold” could be a reference to the 12 tribes/folds of Israel. We would deem that a truth, others would have to at least consider it as a possibility.
The easy answer is that those passages are speaking of trusting one’s own instincts over the Spirit of God. For a clearer explanation on the matter see Proverbs 3:5-7
“5 ¶Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 ¶Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.”
Since the passages you mentioned and this one are so diametrically opposed, one set of them must be misunderstood.
Didn’t read the whole listing, but this is a fairly deep study of the meanings uses and functions of the “heart” throughout the Bible (“used over 1000 times in the Bible”). Clearly more is meant in the use of that word than just “don’t trust the heart its evil”.
By what power? Here is a scary thought – what if Nephi, Moroni, and so on really did exist? And what if your mockery will stand against you at the judgment seat like they warn people who ignore their testimonies? Good luck!
Just because you have not been exposed to evidence, does not mean there is “zero evidence.” That’s like saying someone who has never seen the ocean can claim there is no ocean even though people have been to it, swam in it, and so on. Take the BOM to Egypt, ask a native to read it objectively and look for Egyptian references. I’ll suggest one – Anti-Nephi-Lehi’s. It turns out that word usage of “anti” implies “belonging to” rather than typical English “against” or “opposed to.” The ancient language the BOM is said to have been translated from has no vowels. So Anti-Nephi-Lehi was either a good translation indicator for Joseph or some amazing luck for the young lad. Also, Ishmael’s gravesite, the guy who died during Lehi’s journey in the wilderness, has been discovered and dates back to an all to coincidental year. Cool, huh!?
1. Joseph Smith had a formal 3rd grade education. Fact. He was 21 when the Book of Mormon was published, but had almost no formal training. If you don’t believe this, search online for something he wrote BESIDES the Book of Mormon. His grammar at that time in his life was awful.
2. Information about the Hebraisms and Arabic poetry and Egyptian names, etc, in the Book of Mormon were not available in America at the time. Your argument that from reading the Bible you can gain any INFORMATION about writing styles is simply not correct. That is like saying I can watch a football game and know what the team’s practices were like that week.
3. There was NO information about the coast of Oman (Land Bountiful) in the 19th Century, and even very inaccurate information in encyclopedias until well into the 20th. The areas Joseph Smith very accurately describes are not described at all anywhere in the Bible.
4. Smith, hard at work supporting the family (alcoholic father) with his older brothers, had very little time at all to do this phantom Bible name creation game you describe. (The vast majority of the names are Egyptian in structure, even Hittite anyway, very little of which appears in the Bible) THE BOOK OF MORMON WAS WRITTEN IN 65 WORKING DAYS…not four years.
5. Your point is pointless.
6. This isn’t coherent–Mormons don’t believe He meant them–He meant the Nephites.
7. So, let me get this right–you believe that the idea that Christ visited the New World is preposterous because that visit wasn’t recorded in the Old World? I’m confused–who in the Old World would have been around to record His visit? (By the way, if you did your research, you would actually learn that Origen and other early Christian leaders actually taught that Christ visited people on the other side of the world–but you haven’t done your research).
8. “Widely believed”–pray tell…what excluded book? You actually help build our case here. If scholars out there believe that the stick of Joseph refers to extra-biblical scripture, then apparently we’re in–we just have to point out the inconsistency that while you aren’t sure which book it might be, you’re sure it isn’t the Book of Mormon. Why not?
9. Again–not coherent. How could the Church, which converted people primarily through the Book of Mormon, create fear of rejection with that tool? Many, if not most of the people who believed actually became ostracized for their belief IN it, rather than the other way around. This is just an old and boring attack on religion in general reworded. AND BY THE WAY, three witnesses, who saw the gold plates, whose families were mostly NOT part of Mormonism, left Mormonism, two temporarily, and NONE of them ever denied their having seen the plates, or even told inconsistent stories. EVER.
10. Thank you for predicting the future. Pretty tough unless you’re a prophet. Thanks for tacking on a few references to typical things people say, about which I wager you know very little.
Here’s my point: Your arguments are typical of anti-mormon/Joseph Smith/Mormonism…there is little to no accurate information, complete bias, no thoughtful approach, plenty of philosophizing of your own without connection to the actual case at hand, and lots of rhetoric (which I, in my passion, have admittedly thrown out as well in moments).
If anyone actually reads this–know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, like Moses, Peter, or Paul.
Like them, he will be willfully misunderstood and misrepresented by those who oppose his message. (they hate him because he “never prophesied good unto [them]” (2 Chron 18:7) Like them, Joseph brings us closer to Christ. I know Christ lives because of Joseph Smith. I know the Bible is true because of Joseph Smith. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know what my Father expects of me because of Joseph Smith, and I know the blessings in store for EVERYONE (not just “Mormons”) because of Joseph Smith. And lastly, I can truly say that I am an independent, open-minded, agent unto myself because of the truth restored by Joseph.
–I admit that I’ve been perhaps harsh, but my passion for this truth and disgust at how easily the pretended “scholars” can deride it, having not understood it, cannot be hidden. “I have no hesitation in admitting that in these I have shown greater violence than befitted a man of my calling; I do not set up for a saint, I do not say that my conduct has been above reproach..” -Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, 1521
With all due respect you know nothing about me. I lived in Jerusalem for a year, studying the religion, culture and customs. I traveled all over the Middle East visiting and studying the Bible, so before you get presumptuous again take a minute and think that you really just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Secondly, thank you for the Matthew 7 18 link, I was carrying on multiple conversations at once and wrote the wrong reference to your post.
Thirdly, and most important, “we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly”. Let’s revisit that shall we? The first part is the most important: We believe the Bible is the word of God. We trust it, we study it, we glorify in its teachings, and model our life after its doctrines and principles (“judge not unrighteous judgement”). The second part is the qualifier, but since you don’t believe that statement let’s examine the opposite: We believe the Bible even when its translated incorrectly…That just doesn’t make much sense does it? Did you know there’s more than 80 distinct English translations of the Bible?! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations). Assuming they differ on the content and meanings of God’s Word, which one is correctly translated? They all differ in translation and content, they can’t all be correct at the same time. Hence, the belief that the Bible MUST be translated correctly for it to be the Word of God (instead of man’s interpretation of what they THINK is God’s word).
So let me clear something up before we continue-do you believe the Bible is the word of God when its not translated correctly?
With regards to D&C 130, I assume your referring to v.3 (cross referenced with John 14:23). Show me in the Bible where it says Jesus literally inhabits your chest cavity where you heart rests. Also feel free to explain how you believe that if the LDS church doesn’t agree with how you personally comprehend Bible doctrine it must be untrue??? D&C 130 agrees with the Bible that Jesus and his Father have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39, among others).
“They can not see the words of the Book” – That’s interesting coming from someone that presumes the Bible is correct when translated incorrectly…
This is a well written post thank you for it. Unlike Uduhman you do not make the false assumption I have not read the Book of Mormon over and over. I have well over 100 times being a member active for 60 years.
My point is that Article of faith goes on and says the Book of Mormon is true. Thus the bible is relegated as second class to the Book of Mormon. As a member I never really trusted the Bible. I am well aware of the various versions. I use about 15 of those in total though only a few for the most part and KJV at least to me still seems the best. Most modern versions are truly horrid.
Yes I have a huge problem with vs 3 in 130 where Joseph calls the words of Jesus an old sectarian notion. Furthermore in Joseph going on and placing limitations on the Father and Son. You refer to a verse where the Savior showed the wounds to prove who He was. Thus the need for His resurrected body. Many elsewhere in John though it says the Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father that both would be in the Apostles and us. This is fundemental Christian belief that Jesus can reside in our soul. Joseph states only the Holy Ghost can do that in 130 as well. This is even more objectionable to me. I believe I can have Jesus and the Father in my heart as I fully live the commandments.
I left because of all the doctrines the Church was changing while claiming no change at all Compare http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/White_Horse_prophecy with the 1976 Ensign which covered the White Horse Prophesy. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng I came across this time and time again. Major changes in doctrines always denied. No right hand yet the claim of no change. Many others. I see this as breaking the Commandment against bearing false witness. When I left and really read the Bible I grew to really love the Book. But it did not teach LDS. Jesus started up a much different Church with Feast Days, Clean Food and Seventh Day Sabbath. That never changed with the Apostles. The LDS Church only goes back to 300-400 AD. Not 70 AD. I fully reject the Church Fathers who lived between the Apostles and 500 AD. They taught of the Phoenix as real. Give me a break.
My personal belief is that the Father and Son can make a body for themselves any time they please just like they made one for Adam. Jesus did that or He possibly just kept His body for 40 days he ressurected in. I do not know what was meant when He told Mary to tough me not. Perhaps He was in Spirit then. Or glorified. Do not know. We do know Jacob wrestled with Jehovah (Jesus) then Jesus had such glory that many died with it when Moses tried to show the people Jehovah. Jacob was not the only one to see Jehovah either Abraham ate then walked with him none were burned. This makes it obvious that Jesus puts on various bodies as needed at least it does to me. When Jehovah created the Earth His Spirit rested upon the waters the Bible says. This is deep doctrine. We may believe differently on it. But not on having Jesus in our heart. Few Christians would believe you Christian if you made it clear to them you do not believe that. You only believe the Holy Ghost can dwell in your heart. I always believed Jesus could dwell in my heart as LDS. When this came up people just thought Joseph got it wrong. At least in the many wards I was in. A personal appearance is not believable in that verse. Jesus would not write such a thing then only do it once or twice.
Thanks for this great article. I do know that many of the readers can think of arguments to contradict each point but ultimately, it’s not about proving. Christ didn’t try to prove He was the Son of God. He did what He was here to do, He loved, He forgave, He healed, and He died for us. Did people reject Him they saw Him do all these amazing things (not even to impress them?), of course! Knowing the Book of Mormon takes a humble heart and a desire to know and to act. I promise that just as the Book of Mormon says towards the end of it, “The Spirit will tell you the truth of all things”. Anyone, no matter their religious background, if they approach God that way, will come to know it is the word of God. I just wanted to share that with you. I won’t share anymore as additional words would be useless. Thanks again Greg!
I feel bad for you.
Um dude. Didn’t read that in “Anti-Mormon” lit. Was reading an article totally unrelated to Mormonism. Recognized “Alma” because, who wouldn’t recognize that name when you’ve read the Book of Mormon even at all? And if you swallow the stuff fair is shoveling, well bon appetite. Just one quick reading and fair often sounds believable, but even this reference goes to a cuneiform symbol al6 as the equivalent of Alma and well take that with a grain of salt. Different cultures use names in different ways to mean different things. Some words that sound the same aren’t (for example who in America that’s not Hispanic would name their kid Jesus?). Pretty sure fair’s references are on shaky ground here. Elba wasn’t even Semitic, it was Syrian (totally different culture AND language).
Actually (less than a quick reading) pulls this about the name “Alma”: http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/some-notes-on-book-of-mormon-names/
I like the quote at the end of the article you’re quoting “al6-ma” from, “Certainly the critics? claim that Joseph Smith borrowed Alma from a Latin-based source is no longer the only possible explanation.” (http://goo.gl/dPLINX)
You can dispute as much as you want, but consider that again the Book of Mormon mentions legitimate names from Middle Eastern antiquity, names that aren’t in the Bible, yet another “proof” of its validity.
That aritcle of faith is wrong when considering the book of mormon plagiarizes incorrect parts of the bible from the King James version of the bible. It should say that we believe the book of morn to be the word of god unless it is plagiarizing the king james version of the bible and then it is only as far as it is translated correctly.
God I’d the same yesterday, today and forever!
in that volume he is speaking against Satan and boasting about how Satan can do nothing to prevent him form stopping, there was a time where Jesus was weak in the garden of gasthemene and he prayed to his father to take the atonement away where Joseph smith did not refuse to give up when he prayed. he learned by speaking in person to Jesus that temptation is everywhere and even one as spiritual as him can be fooled if one is in mortal form. wich he was during his trials. but for a moment just the right words of false comfort can make you slip. Jesus got back up and in faith said thy will be done father. so before you spout only half the comment here is the whole thing. also note that when we are weakened that is when the devil strikes and does his best to make us go astray with false hopes and false doctrines and even false feelings in our heart. murders get a warm fuzzy in their heart when they kill does it make it the holy ghost?. Jesus was human at that point and subject to human weakness.
President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. 2 Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster; I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down—but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.
God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.
No this statement out of Joseph Smiths own mouth was when he was being accused of having many wives. Go read the whole thing for yourself. It is Joseph lying. He is acting all high and mighty like he does. Shortly after he says this he speaks about being accused of having multiple wives. He claims he can only find but one. This whole conversation was recorded because I’m pretty sure it was a court transcript or something like that. But it is only one of many times that Joseph is quoted lying. He had many wives at this time and he felt he could lie and get away with anything. That is what got him killed. Why would God ask a prophet to lie and to cheat all to keep his NEW and everlasting covenant of adultery? You all kind find the truth for yourself because it’s found in church history. When they had Joseph try to translate the kiderhook plates. He had no problem coming up with a name and a big long story about their origins. Everyone was quite impressed being that they had made the plates to fool him. The golden plates on the other hand were never seen by anyone’s actual eyes. They were viewed through their spiritual eyes because they were always hid somewhere so no one would steel them. Everyone testified to Joseph looking into a hat to see the plates. If Joseph could translate the plates while they were hidden in the woods? Then why would he ever need to get them in the first place? why would the angel need to take them back? I find it pretty amazing that those who do claim to witness them all left the church because they believed Joseph was out of control with his womanizing and his wife was still in denial about it. Everyone should read this section of church history. vol 6 pg 407-410 I think. It is a perfect example of a prophet of God lying through his teeth. The gospel is great but you don’t need to be a Mormon to know how to be a good person or live a moral life. I’m still trying to understand how you would need rituals in a temple for salvation? I believe in my heart that following the things Jesus taught in the bible is the key to my eternal salvation. Jesus is the way. His life and death on the cross were not forgotten. We did not need a man to teach us who Christ is. But I have no problem with another testament of him if it is plagiarized then it is the same truth being taught. We all need to seek out or own personal testimony of Christ. The trouble comes when it is added too. The sheer audacity of any man to claim he has done more than Jesus himself. Joseph was persecuted because of his lies and his illegal and immoral behavior. It was early America. People were fighting to protect the constitution. They had no problem with freedom of religion. He did not die a martyr. Everything he did was for money power and sex. It was a gross abuse of religious power and it was illegal and immoral on many fronts. It didn’t take a Mormon to see it. But it did take a whole bunch of other morals or “gospel” to make Mormons blind to it. Yet they defended him not realizing why they were being persecuted. They believed just like they do now that is bad evil people out to get them for their faith. They thought people were making up horrid lies about polygamy. They did not do it. Just listen to Jo swear it himself. Once they had to flee out to Utah they found out it was true. But they couldn’t just hop on a bus. The things that took place after they got to Utah were even worse. I won’t even go into what they did to apostates. You can research that as well. All that said it is devastating to lose the religion you have believed in your whole life. Especially when it comes down to being because of the same moral principles you were taught. So to be true to yourself and the god that you know, you are judged and ridiculed for it by society. You lose everything you’ve ever known. It is a big sacrifice for the truth. Many many people just pretend so they don’t have to lose all their family and friends too. The gospel principles are good. The Mormon people are some of the best. I would say even the very elect. But we have been warned that even the very elect would be deceived. Luckily God judges our hearts. So it won’t really matter which religion we belong too. It will only matter how Christlike we are. Status and positions will not matter. We can say we are Mormon and make sure we stay away from all those evil sinners who don’t follow the gospel. We can say how good we are because we do this or don’t do that. But until we can say did unto the least of these as he has done unto us. Then we are no better but worse than some of the worst sinners of all. When we have the pure love of Christ we have truth. When we judge others or judge ourselves to be better or to know more. We have lost it.
“Google that one?” Dominique, I’m afraid that’s why, at this point of time in the world, hardly anyone can come to any sort of conclusion of what is really true and what is really not. Google (and technology in general) is replacing the human mind and the human spirit. Now instead of actually meditating, pondering, praying, observing, listening, and feeling about the truthfulness of anything (whether it be the Book of Mormon or the Koran or the textbook in my history class), the world turns to the internet to find the two second answers to the questions that cannot be known except through the aforementioned methods. I’d rather trust my own feelings or positive thinking or internal convictions any day than what some person, halfway across the world — a person who I’ve never met and never will meet — writes based on some “study” he’s done or “research” he’s found. The inherent abilities of humans, when all is quiet and carefully, independently considered, to know what is right and good and truthful about a certain subject, is far more powerful and lifechanging than a quick Google search on that same subject. So while I do agree with you that a lifestyle, birthplace, familial upbringing, or societal condition etc., etc. produce a certain belief system, I have to also assert that if people would turn away from Google and into their own hearts and minds, maybe those people could actually find something to believe and live rather than saying “Nothing is true and I’m going to prove that to everyone else.” And if that happened, maybe this world would be a little bit better of a place to live.
Google:
Mormon men on moon
Brigham Young view on blacks
Book of Mormon DNA
Mormon Mary Virgin
“Produced” must have been an inspired choice of words… 🙂 The story of the first vision is also something he “produced”. Multiple times in fact.
You put this so well. This is exactly why I converted… I asked myself those same questions and could clearly, logically and deffinitively knew that the BoM is true and scripture thus Joseph a Prophet and the Church the same as the one set up by Jesus and Heavenly Father himself.
Awesome!
Wow! The Mormon faith sure has you twisted up in knots. Check out the definition of Deductive Reasoning on Wikipedia or something and then read over you BOM analysis.
Better yet, check out what the Smithsonian say about the BOM.
Dude, thanks for posting this. You have a strong testimony. I could really feel the spirit, don’t let others get you down, you have a ton of support, and I support you all the way brother X)
Thanks Jake! Appreciate that bro
another person like he was talking about, never read the Book but you are going to bash it anyway… what is an authorized KJV and what makes it different from the KJV that we use? O wait you probably think we don’t believe in the bible, You should ask “joey” how he came to know what to do. (James 1:5)
Again I cant tell if you are uneducated or just trying to pick a fight? why do you come on these sites? Our God Joseph Smith? really? if you are going to quote an article of faith you should start with #1. We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. The jewish sabbath? you mean the on that starts on friday… Jesus was a Jew and his own people had him crucified because of what he taught… but yet we are the ones that are blind
I recently returned to the LDS religion after adultery. I went through a beautiful & supportive repentance process, which I encourage & recommend. Faith, trust & letting go of attachment to outcome gave me the courage. I was afraid, for years, to return, lest my reputation would be damaged & maybe my children would leave the Church, seeing their mom had been a sinner. The impetus was the desire to feel peace again, always, something I often felt when reading the Book of Mormon – which I cannot deny is a true book, ordained of a Father in Heaven.
Thank you so much for sharing!
Poser, why would you say Mormons will go to hell, you are not the judge. Mormons do not believe non-Mormons will go to hell, I don’t understand your reasoning, you make a good case for the truthfulness of the book based on your hatred for your fellowman.
So – according to your statement, hatred toward any one particular group is an acceptable case for the truthfulness of the hated? Let’s see …
1) The Holocaust
2) Israelites and Israel (current and past)
3) The native African race
4) ISIS must be doing something right – there’s gotta be some serious truth to their mission considering the immense hatred toward their group and cause.
5) Islam (highly persecuted and hated)
6) Judaism (another highly persecuted and hated group – testament of the truthfulness of their cause and beliefs? Definitely! Satan is really working overtime to put the Jews in serious pain and hate-ville … gotta mean it’s true, right?)
7) Jehova’s Witness. Now the JW is an interesting piece. Not only are they highly persecuted – on par with Mormons actually. Interestingly, *they* use the fact that they are highly persecuted as evidence of Satan’s hard work against the truth of their religion.
8) Atheists … what? Atheism is persecuted? Oh yeah. In fact, atheists are usually highly persecuted – above that which most christians will ever be in today’s society.
Now – if we’re to go look at persecution per capita … Islam wins hand down. Not only is Islam 18% of the world’s population (granted christianity is ~33%, but do realize that “christianity” is composed of thousands of factions with catholicism coming in at a whopping 1.2 Billion … huh, that’s what? 17% of the entire world’s population.) but they’re also highly persecuted. If we look at persecution per capita, Islam takes the cake in both time, duration, and population over catholicism. And catholicism takes the cake in time, duration, and population over mormonism by an astounding percentage.
Catholicism, remember, is 17% of the world’s population.
Mormonism is – get ready, I’m about to make some people cry – 15 Million right? Well, according to self reported numbers from the church. Except that they keep people on the rolling membership tally until they’re 110 years old. Which means a good portion of that 15 Million have long since past away. Next, the church is really bad at honoring record removal requests, they keep excommunicated and disfellowshipped people on the tally. And how many of those people have left the church never to return? We know the retention rate is god aweful – which is why the church is pumping out even more missionaries and at even younger ages before *they* can defect too.
The actual church membership, according to some rather smart non-biased non-mormons, is estimated to be around 6 Million. But let’s look at both of these numbers.
15Mill:
15000000.0 / 7046000000.0 = 0.002128867442520579
or, in other words 0.2% of the world’s population
what about the more likely number?
6Mill:
6000000.0/7046000000.0 = 0.0008515469770082316
or 0.085% of the world’s total population
Hate? Persecution? Guys – there’s nothing there to even persecute. I mean, we’re talking percents of percents of percents here.
If the LDS church is true, those missionaries aren’t doing a very good job at bringing the world it’s truth. Either that or the holy ghost just doesn’t work like he did back in the days of Zerahemla … well, supposed days of Zerahemla.
??????? Maybe Im just plain Stupid, and you are way way more intelligent then me, Im ok with that. All I know is My real name is Randy Bevan, I believe in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will ever change my mind on this. Now you can go ahead and use your intelligent words to try and satisfy your need to knock me down and sway me to think like yourself, but you are wasting your time and energy. I hope you are as Happy and full of hope as I am, and however you get that way is up to you, personally I get that way thru Jesus Christ, and I attend his Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Have a Great Day—:)
Good point
To hell with us for not accepting the RC Council of Nicean Trinity as Luther and Calvin built upon. And other beliefs or teachings but the real animus is in the English Civil Wars refought in revolution and again in Civil War and now online? LOL.
Who has the right to be called Christian? Any two who meet in his name? By His words…
There is only one Christ Poser, and he will judge, not you. Even in your religion (which I will not bash) he told you to love one another, not bash one another.
Reno Mahe posted this on his wall. He got such a great discussion, that I will be sharing it on mine. I may also do Twitter & Instagram. Hey, when you and Elder Holland stand at the bar, I want to say “ditto for me!”
Awesome!
I have never been coached to say I know. In fact, in Japanese, they say believe, not know. I have researched those questions.
I have studied most religions. The Bible is
not secondary. I have read the Bible in English and Japanese. I am reading the NT in Greek. Just because someone believes different than you, doesnt mean we believe in a different Jesus. There is only one Jesus. Just live your religion and dont criticize others. If you dont believe, thats fine. Just dont tear anyone else down. Funny, people dont try to prove other religions false. And if you are a former religion, why are you so determined to destroy the church? Just go and live your life like other religions do. Former Buddhists dont go around proving that Buddhism is false. Its good to research, but some people take things so literally. I think its sad that people will leave their religion over one sentence in the Bible, that is actually in the Book of Mormon too. We dont understand literally every sentence in the Bible. Plus it has been translated and rewritten several times. Despite what people say, the Book of Mormon never has. I have read a replica of the 1830s one and its EXACTLY the same as the one we have now. So I dont get how people think it has been rewritten 3000 times. Just because someone believes different than you doesnt mean they are brainwashed or coached. You dont know their story. You can even be a convert and a former Atheist and have a Phd, and you will still be asked why dont you think for yourself. I dont get it. All religions teach good things and how to become good people. There are hypocrites, but we are not all that way, so dont judge until you get to know the person.
Kory, I happen to be a devout Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It may be shocking to you but I to love the Bible. The Bible along with The Book of Mormon help me strive to become a better person and Christian. The Happy and Peaceful feelings I feel when reading the Book of Mormon are the same as when I read the Bible. I love The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It brings me unexplained happiness. It is amazing how when I’ve had a terrible week at School, or at work, all the problems go away when I enter the Temple, The House of The Lord. The Church Brings me Peace and Happiness. The Spirit helps me in my every day life. I know that Life is much easier when I have been reading, both thhe Book of Mormon, and The Bible.I hope one day you also realize the joy and happiness it brings me and you will be able to experience it. 🙂
Kevin…before you judge me, I am a very active LDS, doing my own research. When LDS say our church has the “whole truth” this is simple false doctrine, we don’t have the whole truth, that is to claim that there is no more truth to be had, we have it all? We simply don’t, we don’t have all the answers and never have claimed to, so all LDS (including you and the people who have liked your statement) that claim our church has the whole truth is spreading false doctrine. So then you might say “well I stand corrected, everything we teach is 100% truth” If you really say that, then you don’t know much about the history of the teachings of the church and the content that has changed over the years. IF things have changed then its evidence that someone (Usually the prophet at the time) was wrong and it’s impossible to claim everything we teach is 100% truth….so time to open your mind and realize LDS does not have all the answers. Article of Faith 9 “…….and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has the fullness of the gospel, meaning that it contains all the saving ordinances and doctrines that are required for God’s children to return to Him in a state required by Him.
Marcie, thank you for your perspective. I only see a slightly different interpretation of the Bible. For example:
17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
If I might ask, what do you interpret Peter to be once Jesus died? what would consider the definition of a prophet? We believe God gives revelation (communication and guidance) to His children out of love according to their circumstances. Revelation is a powerful influence in my life.
Consider also after the death of Jesus:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:1
Feel free to read the chapter in context, but please note that the Lord is showing them *things to come.* Prophecy. I hope this is helpful. I love knowing God WANTS to guide us personally in a very difficult world.
Greg, have you ever allowed yourself to honestly consider that the Book of Mormon is not true? Having been a member most of my life it’s a question I have feared. The consequences of that consideration are very threatening. It’s a difficult thing to do from a deeply committed position.
I usually do not comment on threads like this one, but I felt the need this time. 99.9% of the “thousands of corrections” that you mention were punctuation. The original language of the Book of Mormon did not use periods, commas etc. Punctuation was added to make reading the Book of Mormon more easily understood.
Punctuation can and most often does change the meaning of a sentence. I have compared the same verse in two different versions of the same scripture and found that where one version places a comma, for example, and the other version does not, the meaning derived from that verse of scripture is totally different. Case in point: “Let’s eat, Mom.” “Let’s eat Mom.” Food for thought.
Incorrect as clearly demonstrated with actual comparisons or original BOM pages in Mormonism Shadow or Reality published by Gerald and Sandra Tanner.
Try Hugh Nibley and B H Roberts who were closer. do you then believe Tanner about the God makers when she debunks that bit of False Witness bearing?
No unhallowed hand or heart — IMO.
At this end of her life and fame, what does old age offer the soul of Sandra? Beats me. Her resurrection by grace and her judgement by her works–we can’t even agree on that?
The works of ordinance like baptism and the doctrine of obedience and faith was greatly emphasized in my childhood pre-the million member miracle we beamed about – imagine that in small town America. The grace of the atonement always known and assumed and the basis for belief IMO. Just wasn’t called that loudly and clung to–there was always the enduring to the end thing. The being something.
it was more than punctuation , paragraphs were added and taken away, names were changed , words were changed . do a little research
I would add that why should so many others care? Their religion doesn’t hang on proving Mormonism wrong–or does it in their hearts?
Does the BoM teach that Yahweh is just the God of this world (Earth) and that Mormons will someday get to become God over their own planets? Does that conflict with the bible’s teaching that there is only one God (not many Gods over many planets around the Universe)?
That’s weird to me. Your God is powerful enough to create the universe but he’s not powerful enough to maintain his sacred text (the bible) through the ages? To get God’s “true” word, we need a North American man with a set of magic glasses?
Just doesn’t jive with me. Why is your god powerful enough to give Joseph Smith the truth but he’s not powerful enough to give bible writers & compilers the truth? And who says that Joseph Smith’s words won’t become corrupted and polluted in the same way you think the bible is corrupted and polluted?
I don’t believe in Mormonism, but that scripture doesn’t prove Mormonism wrong. This is nothing but a quick jerk reaction Born Again Christians were taught to prove, falsely, that Mormonism doesn’t follow the bible. If you’re going to disprove something, please do it intelligently.
Dear Jon B,
You don’t want to hear this, but the reason that the anti-mormons are always ready to pounce is that they were raised in a cult. We’re a damaged bunch, the ex-mormons. You try to move on. You want to believe you’re just one of the normal people now. But you’re not. You’re the product of a cult. A religion that doesn’t allow questioning and doesn’t allow individuality and keeps a thousand secrets. No, The Book of Mormon isn’t true. I’ve read it a bunch of times. It’s a nice work of fiction. Yes, it’s wildly historically inaccurate. But that’s not the scary part. The scary part is that it has been used as a tool to control people. We fear that now and want to fight it. For many of us, the Mormon church has become a demon that we not only have to face every day, but that still lives inside of us.
Greg:
There is one book that you should read to expedite your understanding about what Joseph Smith taught as Mormon doctrine and scripture after 1835. I’ll tell you what it is in a moment. Before 1835, according to the BOM, Smith believed in a God that could never change, that was from everlasting to everlasting (that is, with no mortal beginning); he supposedly believed, as the BOM taught, that polygamy was vile and corrupt and not approved of God. This is what is taught in Jacob. If you have read the 1833 Book of Commandments, you will see what disturbed David Whitmer. In 1835, two years after God, the unchangeable, supposedly revealed the 1833 Book of Commandments, Smith changed every one of the sections in the Book of Commandments to make the Doctrine and Covenants. He added thousands of words and deleted hundreds of words. That was after Sydney Rigdon appeared and the “Aaronic and Melchizadek Priesthoods” suddenly appeared, which, if eternal as they are acclaimed to be, were not mentioned in the Book of Commandments or the BOM. Smith didn’t even give a date for his and Oliver Cowdery’s ordination as elders by Peter, James and John, nor was the Melchizadek Priesthood mentioned until 1835. Strange, huh?
Then came the Joseph Smith Papyri, that he claimed was written by the hand of Abraham ono papyrus 6,000 before the birth of Christ. He persuaded the Kirtland Mormons that he could translate the papyri and got them to buy Egyptian mummies and papyri from Michael Chandler in 1835 for $25,000. Then he pretended to know how to translate Egyptian, created a Egyptian grammar and alphabet, and produced what he called “The Book of Abraham.” This sort of went along with the story of the Kinderhook Plates, but that is another set of interesting facts. After Smith was lynched, in 1844, the JS Papyri disappeared through Emma Smith Bidamon, and everyone though that they would never be found. But in 1968, portions of the JS Papyri were discovered in the New york Metropolitan Museum, and they were translated by Dr. Klaus Baer, who I spoke to twice about the translation. He said that the JS Papyri revealed that Smith had produced a grammar and alphabet that was as mythical as “Alice in Wonderland.” He said that the facsimilies in the “BO Abraham” and the proper translation of the papyri was all about the Egyptian Book of Breathings and a Priest named Horus, who was one of the mummies sold by Michael Chandler to the Mormons in 1835. It had nothing to do with Abraham, and was dated to 100 B.C., not 6,000 B.C.
The Book of Abraham led to the 1844 King Follett Discourse, and the theology of Mormonism that Joseph smith taught before he died, which was that the father god of Mormonism was an exalted man, and that worthy Mormon men could become gods, to create worlds and procreate spirit children. This was taken by Brigham Young to the Salt Lake Valley, where, in 1851, he decaled the Adam-God Doctrine in the Salt Lake Bowery, and later in the Tabernacle and on the Tabernacle lawn during several Mormon General Conferences. This is recorded in the “Journal of Discourses.”
Now, the book that you should read may be obtained through inter-library loan. It is “The Women of Mormondom,” written by Edward W. Tullidge in 1877. It was blessed and approved by Brigham Young before his death, and dedicated to Eliza R. Snow, the 2nd General relief Society President. It clearly shows what the Mormon people believed, and the god thaat they worshipped from 1851 until around 1904. It documents the Adam-God Doctrine, which was placed into the Mormon temple rite in 1877 by Brigham Young, in the St. George Temple. Brigham Young called the written liturgy to be added to the Mormon endowment, “The Lecture Before the Veil.”
Before you definitely conclude that Mormonism is of the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, read “The Women of Mormondom” and realize that Edward Tullidge was telling the truth, and was extolling what he believed, what Eliza R. Snow believed, and what Brigham Young believed as Mormon doctrine, scripture, and revelation. If you really want to know the truth, read and you will realize that Mormonism is not of the real God of Israel, the Master of the Universe, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Oh, I would never use the false Book of Mormon – I would only use the true Book of Mormon 😉
I just used those verses to illustrate that there could only be one church that is God’s church. There are many different churches out there with conflicting beliefs, so they can’t all be right.
The way that I and many others have come to know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church is by coming to know that The Book of Mormon is true.
If The Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith really was a prophet and truly restored God’s church on the earth.
There is a promise in The Book of Mormon that says we can know that it is a true book if we read it and ask God if it’s true, then the Holy Ghost would testify to us of its truthfulness. ( see Moroni 10:4-5 (in the Book of Mormon) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.4-5?lang=eng#3 )
The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. ( see 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/2.12-14?lang=eng#12 )
I have a question – where does it say that God closed new revelation? Do you have a source for that?
I too have a question. Where does it say that God even gives revelation? And where does it say that this God is the christian god in specific? And where does it say that this God only gives revelation to one select group of worshipers? And furthermore – where does it say that there is even a god? And in all the books and places that all these things are said and documented (aka: Bible, Koran, Theraveda, Bon, Donghak, Writings of Ellen White, Book of Mormon, 22 books of Confucius, Egyptian pyramid and coffin texts, other Egyptian texts – Amdaut, book of gates, the famous book of the dead etc., Liber Linteus, The Vedas and The Bhagavad Gita, Jain Agamas, The Hermetica – The Kybalion – and Hermes Trismagestos’ famous and probably fabled works: The Emerald Tablet, The Tanakh, can’t forget The Popol Vuh, let’s not forget The Book of The Law either or any of the Thelemic works. The Tao Te Ching is the obvious choice being an oracle the moves and reports according the the flow of God’s voice. And how about the fairly large collection of writings in Zoroastrianism)
Should we go on? This is only a dent out of the books and writings that lay claim to what god is, what his truth is, how he/she/it works, how revelation is dispensed, and to what group of people.
What I’m saying here is this – let’s sift through these first before we make the presupposition that leads you to be able to ask your questions as if the bible contained truth or something like that.
There are many different and conflicting ideas about religion and who/what God is – that is why it can be so confusing and difficult to know the truth about Him.
However, I have come to know that there is a way in which we can really know the truth about God. One passage of scripture ( https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32.27-34?lang=eng#26 ) talks about how we should “experiment upon [the words]” to know if they are true. So in other words, we should try things out for ourselves and see if they are true.
For example, if a scripture ( https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.4?lang=eng#3 ) promises you that you can know if the Book of Mormon is true by asking God about it in prayer, then do it – try saying a prayer and asking God if the Book of Mormon is true. Experiment upon those words. See if God really will reveal that truth to you by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Another example is if you want to know if God really answers prayers and will not “upbraid” if you ask of Him (in other words, not scold us for asking Him – as it says in James 1:5-6 – https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/1.5-6?lang=eng#4 ), then try asking God something. If you do not believe in God then try asking Him if He exists. However, as it says in verse 6, you need to ask with faith – in other words, believing that God could possibly exist. I know from experiences that I’ve had that God does exist and really does answer prayers, even though the answer He gives us is not always the answer we want.
The same kind of experiment can be done on any number of scriptural texts and things that are taught about God. I invite you and anyone else reading this to “experiment upon the word” – see for yourself if the promises contained in those books are true.
Hello creationTribe.
If you are interested in some insight that I have gained over the years, I’d like to share something with you about the role of the scriptures in helping one to come to know truth for themselves. As I have spent the time to grind and hash out ideas that I have had concerning what the purpose of the the Bible is, I have noticed some trends. One trend is that over and over again these guys keep popping up who are referred to as prophets. They almost always claim that they have had an experience with God in some way. Often they are told, by God, to give some message or another, like Moses. Often they speak, either symbolically (like Isaiah) or directly about Christ (like Job). Their message can generally be summed up like this.
There is a God, He loves you, He has a plan for you. Because certain of road blocks your happiness and fulfillment can’t be realized with out Christ to help you.
I’m keeping this brief so don’t poke fun okay? 🙂
Anyway, what I have begun to realize is simply that we are not to read these things and just believe. But it occurred to me that if God makes himself manifest to these guys, then am I so different? The obvious answer is no. God will with out prejudice reveal himself to us as well, though certain conditions apply (see James 4:3). But these conditions applied to the prophets as well. The point is that those who seek truth from God can receive it from him. A warning voice I must give you, don’t tell God how or when to reveal something to you, that’s His job 🙂 I know that to someone who does not believe in God, these things can sound crazy, but if you are someone who really does want to know from the source, you can receive it.
Kevin, Was God once a man? Did he progress to Godhood? Who was his God? How many Gods are there?
Well, I for one believe that God was once a man and that He did progress to Godhood. I know of no place in scripture or modern-day revelation that mentions who His God was or if His God had a God, etc.. so I really have no idea on that.
As for our God, I believe in God the Eternal Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are three separate beings but one in purpose.
Kevin, When God said “I am from everlasting to everlasting”, what do you think that means? Why do you believe God was once a man? What scripture/authority do you base your belief on?
Referring to your first question about God saying that He is from “everlasting to everlasting,” I don’t know for sure – but my first guess is that He has existed forever – not necessarily been God forever, but has been around forever. I’ve thought of a couple other possible explanations, but I’ll stick with that one for now. It could also depend on the context of the verse you’re referring to – perhaps you can let me know which one you’re talking about, if you want.
My belief that God was once a man comes from the words of some modern-day prophets. One prophet, Lorenzo Snow, coined the following couplet (or something like it):
“As man now is, God once was;
as God now is, man may be”
( see more about this couplet here, under the subheading about “Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement” – https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/02/i-have-a-question?lang=eng )
Joseph Smith also taught this doctrine in what is now commonly known as the King Follet sermon. ( the first part of it can be found here, and the doctrine is taught under the subheading “God an Exalted Man” https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng ).
In the church we don’t focus so much on the fact that God was once a man – instead we focus on our potential to become like God.
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy
32:39
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
There is one God and one God only. There is no goddess, no infinity of gods as Mormonism teaches. The scripture is clear. He is the Alpha and the Omega.
I have the same question…what mortal man or woman thinks they can decide when and if God speaks to His children. I think that’s up to God. If He loves his children and wants to give them instruction today just as He did anciently, I say nothing is stopping Him.
We dont worship the cross because we believe it is sacreligious to worship something jesus died on. we look at it as a symbol of his death and not of his eternal life
And if he did you would shoot down that one as well.
The only conditioning I got was by the Lord. How does that translate to converts?
Moron!
Have you read the book of Mormon?
I see you have proclaimed yourself the judge. What you are doing is not much different then what ISIS is doing in the middle east. You have decided what you believe in is whats right and you will do everything you can to make others believe that. The LDS church asks people to pray and seek their answer from our Heavenly Father. “You will know them by Their works” takes on a different meaning.
There is believing and then there is knowing. When I was thirteen I asked for a testimomy and sure knowledge that the Book of Mormon and the Church were true. At the time I was reading in second Nephi chapters 8-10. In fact I was reading the recount of Lehi’s dream to Nephi and it meaning. I got warm from just below my navel to my throat. It was then that I knew the Book of Mormon was true.
It takes more than merely reading the B of M to know that it is true. You must pray to know of a surety it is true, not expecting an immediate answer because it won’t come that way. James told us that and so does Moroni at the end of the Book of Mormon.
Knowing comes through the Holy Ghost and the revelation he brings with him. If you weren’t sincere in your desire to whether/if the B of M is true then receiving that witness my not happen. Humility is key to gaining the knowledge that comes from the spirit. It took me until I got to sacrament meeting and read that dream and its meaning as I sat there probably pondering it every second spent reading it.
All who haven’t read it prayerfully and with sincere desire to know haven’t received witness to its divine authenticity. I know the Book of Morman is true. I have felt the spirit many times as I read various sections of its words. I know because the spirit of God manifested it unto me and there is no other way a sure knowledge can come.
This thwarts the Tea party in current election. the diehards want their way as they see it the only way and the nation sees right-wing dictatorship as more fearful than sectular/humanist/atheiist who now seem to be winning the political day?
The definition of insanity is finding something not working and doubling sown on efforts. God help us all in these days when men’s (mankind’s hearts fail?
LDS church having no political positioning–never have being allowed, may or may not have a lighter load. Nah, never a lighter load but a lighter-hearted one? Poetically speaking now.
“Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t trust your feelings. ”
Not only is this absolutely false, but it is 100% demonstrable. Ready? There are other religions with other members, who’ve had their feelings testify of the truth of their religion to them. Another example? I have friends who sincerely and honestly prayed about the BOM who got an answer from “God” that the BOM is NOT of divine origin and is of the devil. Furthermore, I know a vast many more who prayed honestly and with a sincere heart who never got an answer at all. But here’s the best evidence of all. Feelings are emotional responses. Key word: RESPONSES. I personally have made missionaries feel the spirit in my evil atheist home simply by telling them the lies that they wanted to hear and completely filling their ears with b.s. They walked away having felt “temple level” spirit, while watched in amazement at how easily the were manipulated.
“There is no doubt those plates existed. Too many people felt them with their own hands and saw them with their own eyes. Even the people that were trying to steal them from Joseph knew that he had something special. They existed, and now you can hold it in your hand and find out for yourself if its true.”
Actually – nobody felt them with their own hands and/or saw them with their own eyes. The testimony of both the 3 and 8 witnesses were both written by Joseph Smith, and all the signatures were signed by Cowdry. Ever wonder why everyone’s signature was in the same handwriting? Next, nobody saw them with their own eyes. Smith made them sit down and meditate and picture the plates in their minds eye. This is documented truth. There has never been an account of anybody actually seeing them. Many of the “witnesses” were hesitant to be a part of this because they knew they had never really seen the plates. There’s journals, written testimonies, and public speeches wherein original witnesses told the truth of the matter.
“In my mind, it would be more of a stretch to believe that Joseph Smith could pull this thing off without divine help than to believe that God preserved a record to come forth in the last days. In fact, it would just be flat out impossible because of the many things he got right that had never even been discovered.”
First – I’ll point out that you started this with “in my mind …” Yes, in YOUR mind. First off, Smith got more things wrong in the BOM than he got right. What exactly are you referring to when you say he got them right and that they had never been discovered? Might want to detail that a bit more. You find it impossible because you haven’t taken the time to read about what really happened. You could have a 10 year old sit down and write a paper on quantum physics. You’d say, “God obviously helped this boy write the paper. In my mind, there’s no way a 10 year old boy could have written this detailed of a paper on quantum physics.” … yeah, except that what you’re not seeing is that he had a college level physics text sitting next to him and pulled whatever seemed like it would make sense. Magic tricks man.
And now to address your list of questions, Greg.
1) Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
YES! In fact, Joseph’s father was a school teacher and would often come home and school his children. Joseph received the equivalent of that days high school grad’s education. The book is NOT historically accurate. In fact it contains an inordinate amount of anachronisms, plagiarisms, inconsistencies, even word for word copies of a NT prophet’s speech regurgitated by BOM prophets hundreds of years before the original author spoke it, but just happens to contain those things only relevant to the new testament’s prophets specific situation and time in Jerusalem.
2) Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?
YES! Because by the time he started translating he was well into his 20’s and was somewhat of a autodidact.
3) How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.
Seriously? This is again, not true. The “Stone of Lehi” stuff – that’s been debunked a thousand times over. Even FAIR rejects this now. There is nothing here that, again, Joe didn’t already have access to. On top of that he made a ton of mistakes.
4) How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?
He didn’t come up with 200 new names. He stole the names from the bible, and form places, lakes, rivers, and towns surrounding his immediate location. This has been shown on levels that are almost comical.
5) If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.
You can check this yourself. ~30% of the BOM is directly plagiarized from the bible. Word for word. Including the translatory mistakes specific to the very same King James version that Joseph Smith owned. There are at least 10 other sources of word for word plagiarism that we can prove. Oh, and the King Benjamin story … lifted directly from his very own experience when a well loved and liked preacher gave his last address. People came from all around, pitched their tents in the very manner reported in the BOM. The names were even the same. All the way down to people having to write down what he said so they could take it to the people far away who couldn’t hear and to the people being so filled with the spirit that the fell and rolled around overwhelmed with the spirit.
6) Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?
Well, according to catholic.com: “the “other sheep” Jesus mentions are the righteous Gentiles, who did not belong to the “fold” of God’s chosen people, Israel, but who would respond to the gospel when preached to them.”
So, ya. Likewise, that’s not the only tough question the NT hands believers. Why focus on that question?
7) Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?
That’s not a question that can be answered with any level of evidence whatsoever. If they’re referring to Quetzalcoatl then they have no idea what they’re talking about. Please do some legitimate research on the matter.
8) If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?
Bro! You need to do some research … and maybe even read your bible:
“””The correct interpretation of this symbolic action of the prophet is given just a few verses later. Ezekiel is to take the two sticks, put them end to end and hold the joined ends in his hand. He thus displays to the people a “single” stick, once again united. This is to show that the scattered remnants of the Southern kingdom (“Judah”) and Northern kingdom of Israel (“Joseph”) will be returned from exile, restored to their land, and made one nation again. “They shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all” (Ez 37:22).”””
9) How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.
You are correct. A hoax of that magnitude could never go uncovered. Which is why it has been uncovered. Actually many of them rejected the church as being a fraud. Guess what? I had an extremely strong testimony of the church… I’ve never recounted it. But I can tell you that I know the church is not true – I don’t have to recant it, I merely have to state that I no longer have a testimony and that I know the church is a fraud. But for your enjoyment, here, “I officially recant any testimony I have ever bore of the Book of Mormon, the LDS church, and Joseph Smith. I officially deny my old and non-existent testimony.” Anyway, It’s not something most people do when they leave this church or that church. And there are many reasons why. First and foremost – they just didn’t care to – they got on with their lives. You do know, however, that they did join other churches, and signed other testimonies quite similar to the BOM testimonies. In fact, I think you’d be hard pressed to find any one person who left any one particular church who has officially recanted and/or denied their testimony for the record. I’ve heard this argument and it’s just fluff.
10) How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.
The BOM contradicts itself CONSTANTLY. Names have been changed, entire chapters have been pulled and re-written. Benjamin – for example – and Mosiah had their names switched over and over. Anachronisms, complete chapters pulled from other people’s books and written works including the bible. It’s complex because it’s not his work – it’s stolen from other people. There is plenty of evidence that would, in fact, completely have the book thrown in Hoxer’s Prison if you took the BOM to trial. The evidence is so clear and unmistakable that it would seal it’s fate in an actual court of law. You just haven’t looked. My favorite is in 3rd Nephi when Jesus quotes himself from the Bible, including the translatory mistakes as found word for word in Joseph Smiths’ personal copy of the bible. Including references to only the people in Israel, using terms that are only applicable to the time and places of the NT. And using the word “Adieu”, a french word before it was even in existence? Ya, there’s plenty of english words, and hebrew words that mean the exact same thing.
You mean like the Bible was perfect the first time? Remember it was put together by man, many books left out, and if it were not for the Catholics(who you put down also as a false church) we would not even have the Bible. Even an uneducated man like myself can see right thru you Poser. Lose the hatred for others, find love for your fellow man. It is up to each of us to find out on our own, and not be forced into believing one way or another. Where I live we get along great with the local Baptist church, work side by side at volunteer projects, and together spread much help and love throughout our community. That to me is what Jesus really wants, not arguing and putting each other down.
Good points well said
Im a sinner ! I like to party !
Are you going to tell me we The Jews are not G-ds people ? and if you say the Catholic Church is wrong you may as well give up typical Baptist |Im right and your wrong who are you to userp THE L-RD G-D of The Jewish people anyway >>>
Sorry as A Jew I have to disagree with you
DO YOU DECIDE WHO GETS INTO HEAVEN !!!!!!
Does Joseph Smith decide who gets into heaven? Some of the Mormon prophets thought so.
The Prophet said to toss out the Bible, Really???? When was this??
God can change a persons dna if he wants to. Duh!
Show your evidence that the book of moron is true because by the same token there is no evidence that it is true,people claiming that it is true does not make it so
Please explain:
No Book of Mormon cities have been located.
No Book of Mormon names have been found in New World inscriptions.
No genuine inscriptions have been found in Hebrew in America.
No genuine inscriptions have been found in America in Egyptian or anything similar to Egyptian, which could correspond to Joseph Smith’s ‘reformed Egyptian.’
No ancient copies of Book of Mormon scriptures have been found.
No ancient inscriptions of any kind in America which indicate that the ancient inhabitants had Hebrew or Christian beliefs have been found.
No mention of Book of Mormon persons, nations, or places have been found.
No artifacts of any kind which demonstrates the Book of Mormon is true has been found.
No evidence of the following having existed in the pre-European New world:
Barley
Figs
Grapes
Wheat
Ass
Bull
Calf
Cattle
Cow
Butter
Elephants
Milk
Flocks
Goat
Herds
Horse
Ox
Sheep
Sow
Swine
Bellows
Brass
Breast Plates
Chains
Copper
Iron
Ore (mining)
Plows
Silver
Swords (metal)
Steel
‘m not sure what you mean with the claim that the LDS church only goes back to 300-400 AD..
The LDS Church through BYU studies did a piece on the Temple and how it was justified. They used the Catholic Church between 300-400 A.D. to justify temple ordinances. Evidently many were done then similar to in LDS Temples. The Church Fathers are available on line. I have read them. Evil men as I mentioned. Teaching witchcraft and Baal worship. They argued early on for changing the Sabbath from the Seventh Day to Sunday. They had mostly accomplished this by 378 AD. They also argued against the Feast Days and Clean Food. By about the same time they were mostly eradicated. The Christians burned at the stake were those that dared keep the Feast Days and Seventh Day Sabbath. The fight did not end then. It continued on. The Spanish Inquisition was fought over Seventh Day Sabbath among other things.
The LDS Church says nothing on why the Feast Days are not observed. Simply now we do the pagan festivals of Christmas and Easter. They do not say pagan of course. The church claims four scriptures about sundry things done on the First day justify Sunday Sabbath. Collecting mail (work) and a going away party for Paul. They cite that the Savior was raised on the First Day yet this is not supported by scripture as Mary found the tomb empty. Furthermore Matthew says Mary waited for the Sabbath to end then left. That would mean she left at sunset on Saturday. As she left an earthquake which moved the stone. So this has her arriving on Saturday to an empty tomb. Now the Savior did eat with the Apostles later on the First Day. But the idea he changed the Sabbath is refuted by many scriptures saying the Apostles taught in the Synagogue and continued after the Jews left on the Sabbath. Clearly the Jews did not change the Sabbath.
D&C 130 states only the Holy Ghost can dwell in a man. Last time I checked our heart is in us. LDS does also teach Jesus can dwell in your heart ignoring D&C 130. Almost like they do not believe 130. Obviously the Savior was in a physical body. Jehovah did not wrestle Jacob with a spiritual body as you can not feel one. They have no substance. Abraham met three angels one day. They spoke as the Lord. One of them was Jehovah who ate with Abraham told Sarah she would give birth and then traveled into town or near it with Abraham. That is a physical body. It also lets us know when we see an Angel that Angel could be our Lord.
As for inspiration I find it in the name of Yahwey Echad closing in the name of Yahoshua my Savior and Messiah. Those are the correct names as opposed to the KJV names. I now avoid the KJV mostly. I prefer the HBR. Hebrew Roots Bible. I very much love and know my Savior. Never more so in my life.
I appreciate the reply, how busy life can get it means a lot to continue our conversation. In my opinion whether or not to follow a holiday isn’t grounds to dismiss the prophetic vision of Joseph Smith and the Restoration of Christ’s church. Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays and are celebrated by the vast majority of Christian and non-Christian alike. Sharing faith on a combined holiday, despite the revelation that Christ was born in April not December, allows a unity of the Christian faiths. Akin to celebrating your birthday on a day more convenient instead of the physical day you were born. Feast Day holidays such as the Passover and are not celebrated because the event they were waiting for already happened. We have no more cause to wait on the return of the Savior or Elijah. The Passover celebrates the coming Messiah (who came hence the NT) and the expectation of Elijah’s return (who visited Joseph in the temple and restored the keys of the Priesthood to him). As for the Sabbath day falling between Friday night and Saturday night (as in Jewish culture the day changes when the sun goes down, not when it comes up) this is mainly cultural. The Restoration of the church occurred in non-Jewish lands, thus the Sabbath, the day of rest, naturally fell on Sunday instead of Friday night. This is a cultural change, there doesn’t need to be evidence of a switch. If the proper priesthood authority set the Sabbath day on Sunday then so be it. When you worship the Savior isn’t relevant compared with how and how often. Wouldn’t you agree?
Too often scriptural interpretation comes down to opinion. There isn’t a scripture where Christ says “I have earned my body in my Second Estate and I’m now a complete being like my Father, and ONLY the Spirit dwells in your heart.” Baring such a clear declaration doctrines are largely left to the interpreter whether “in” means cohabitation or is figurative. Not sure its really worth arguing over, due to the lack of scriptural references. I’d suggest reading “Jesus the Christ” by James E. Talmage (if you already have, check it out again) its by far the most comprehensive study of the life and role of the Savior.
Most of the issues you’ve presented deal with circumstantial principles that have little if any relevance to which church is one adheres themselves with. A few comments ago you made this declaration:
“The Bible is all about putting the full love of Jesus into ones heart.”
I believe the Bible is about God teaching us through his Son Jesus Christ that we must be as Christ is and do as Christ does–the will of the Father in all things, at all times, and in all places, standing in faith and hope for what is to come. Essentially summed up in John 17:3 and 3 Nephi 27:27 (among many, many others).
“5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.” (D&C 39:5-6)
All other matters outside of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel
(faith–>repentance–>baptism–>gift of the Holy Ghost) are addons to assist disciples of Christ in “enduring to the end” and living in a world hellbent on sin and debauchery. :p
What do you think of the teaching of Joseph Smith that:
“A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things” (Lectures on Faith, 6th lecture, paragraph 7) ??
What it all come down to is this. What leads a person to God and to worship God? Equally important is, what God do you worship? Without a knowledge of the nature of God, we worship in vain.
The LDS Church is a testament to the absurd level of denial and poor critical thinking it takes to believe such a foolish, far fetched and contrived story as told by J.Smith. Smith was a “professional treasure hunter”, failed businessman and failed farmer… he also believed in magic. Of course no one saw the ‘gold plates’ but him. Come on folks, get a grip. This so totally silly and stupid it is an embarrassment to any intelligent person. Get a life.
So I have read the book, 9 times to be exact, and I have prayed and pondered over every verse. Raised in the church, I was indoctrinated from childhood. And the only thing I ever got from reading and studying the Book of Mormon is that is is a load of bunk. My testimony was strong only when I did not read it. It is poorly written, nonsensical, and full of holes. On top of that the feelings I felt when reading it told me to run away. And I still stayed 38 years. That is the power of the cult. And that is why we “pounce” to save others from our pain.
The BOM is true the same way the book Les Miserables is true. They both are clearly works of fiction, but teach good, “true”, moral lessons on the redemption of the human spirit. There is a lot of good to be learned by reading the BOM.
However, as has already been stated repeatedly in these comments, it has been very convincingly proven to be false in the sense of an actual historical document. Best source I’ve read on that vein is Grant Palmer’s “An Insider’s Guide to Mormon Origins.” Well researched, thoroughly sourced, and paints a very compelling picture of how the BOM actually came to be. The Church ex’ed him for it (or would have had he not resigned right before his disciplinary council) without ever telling him where he was factually off base, despite him repeatedly asking them to show him where he was in error and what he needed to repent of.
Greg, in all sincerity, it’s better on the outside. It is extremely difficult to go through the process of learning that everything you’ve believed your whole life isn’t what you thought it was. Very painful. Yet the march of evidence has been very unkind to the Church’s truth claims. They simply don’t stand up in the face of the facts. None of them. The Church’s own essays over the last year are proof that the story we’ve been told all our lives didn’t happen the way they told us.
It is very liberating to leave and have nothing in between you and a personal relationship to God. Whatever that looks like for you.
DNA can only be as accurate as its test subjects. So tell me, who has been tested as a verified descendant of Book of Mormon people? As Book of Mormon lands aren’t known, how is a descendant from that region garnered as a test subject? How was this decided on and to what accuracy?
As for suitable a Middle Eastern candidate. how was this decided on and to what accuracy? Who was tested in the Middle East that can claim to be a surviving relative to Lehi (not his direct family as they went with him)? Soon after Lehi abandoned Jerusalem (~ 600 B.C.) it was destroyed by the Babylonians and its citizens dispersed into other nations (~587 B.C.). Finding a relative that survived this and other migrations throughout Jewish history would be a miracle of epic proportions.
So, to your DNA “argument”. Testing two random people let’s just assume a random Native American and a random Jew (not verified as descendants), and realizing they’re not related is the argument made against the Book of Mormon by those eager to jump on DNA “evidence”.
Basing your religious beliefs on such a scientific practice is ludicrous. Science does not prove religion (or anything really), it merely provides theories and interesting sidebar information.
Believe what you want, but the DNA “evidence” contrary to the Book of Mormon has been thoroughly debunked.
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I answer your title in the affirmative. Yes, the book is a fraud. I left Mormonism after decades because it is not true. Joseph Smith broke every one of the ten commandments.
The problem with the mormon religion and the book of mormon is that it contradicts itself and it contradicts the bible so that would make God and author of confusion and not of a sound mind. Plus its a powerless church not walking in the power of Christ. I see no healings, miracles, or casting out of demons in Jesus name. How about garments? Just like adam and eve… hurry here comes the father, cover up. Only the shedding of innocent blood can cover sin, ” The reason for Jesus.” Its really sad because alot of mormons live righteously, but deny the power of God. Such a pridefull bunch, dress your best on sunday, exalting yourselves through works to become you yourselves as gods… Sounds just like satan, the reason he feel from heaven ,” I to will be as the most high” . There is only one God and his name is Jesus Christ. As far as were did Joesph Smith get the book of mormon? Try the latters of Paul bunyan… Prophets of the most high dont stair into hats at seer stones, and they surely dont belong to freemason lodges before and after receiving word from an angel of the lord. In luke I think 12:16 or 16:16 its somewhere near there dont quote me just read I know its there, it says the time for the law and prophets is done , now is the time to preach the kingdom of God. Exactly what the apostles and every desciple since should be doing. Plus mormon prophets declare crazy things like polygamy, then when men take sexual advantage of the situation, they say no more cause god saw what we were doing. GOD is holy and would not have fallen men serving him thrown into a temptfull situation he would foreknow they would fail. How would that glorify his son? It wouldnt. Why do mormons believe that the bibles message is not complete or corrupted? Do they not think the creator of the universe and everthing in it could not protect his word? They will have no excuse because they tout the tru word right there next to the book of mormon. Satan is making a fool of you. Your testimonies start with I know this church is true and tha joseph smith is a true prophet…. but joseph smith and church will not save you, only Jesus can do that, it was never moses or king david or solomon it was always the Lord.
Q: Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture
on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
Do you actually know ANYTHING about Church History, Greg? Because it doesn’t seem like you do. First of all, Smith was in his twenties when he wrote the Book of Mormon, and therefore not a “boy”. Second of all, Joesph Smith was not “uneducated”. One of his few positive personality traits was that he maintained a series of tutors throughout his adult life. This is clearly document even in Church-approved biographies like “Rough Stone Rolling.”
But worst of all is your weird and entirely dishonest insistence that the BoM is “historically accurate”. That’s not only nonsense, it’s a flat-out lie. DNA testing has proven that Native Americans are of Asian origin, not Hebrew. Also, it’s been proven that there were no horses, elephants, steel weapons, or chariots in ancient America. As for “prophetic”- name one thing that the BoM prophesies. Make sure it’s something Joseph Smith couldn’t have known about personally.
Belief is everything. You caught a big wave in Mormonism. But you’re not necessarily going to wipe out if the BoM isn’t factual. Does it really matter? Either way it teaches you how to be the Christ. It’s time for the Church to stop defending against the idea that Joseph made it all up. All religions are made up. That’s called creative genius. Great religions stand the test of time. This position that the BoM is true is untenable. It contains true principles, but wooden submarines? No correlation with actual pre-Columbian America? It just plain can’t be factually true.
This is where the Church should grow up but it’s stuck in an adolescent stage between childlike belief and adult intellectual honesty.
I, too, poured over the BoM to figure out if it was true or not. I found that it was not true, due to a crushing lack of evidence for it, compared to many points within that have been disproved. Much of the technology, such as metalworking and weapons, and animals such as elephants and horses were not in the Americas at the supposed time of writing. There is no such language as “reformed Egyptian” and people who can read hieroglyphics have deemed the papyri used for the Book of Abraham to be another set of common funerary texts written long after the time of Abraham.
The BoM might have accurate geography for the Middle East, but much of how it describes the Americas is disproportionate and any evidence that the civilizations mentioned does not exist. There are no city ruins, technology, burial grounds, or other anthropological evidence that they were ever there. Even if entire cities were destroyed and the bricks and tools and everything thrown into the ocean, there would at least be signs of where the ground was leveled for building. I know, however, that you have probably heard these points time and again. I can’t tell you how to believe, but blind faith wasn’t enough for me. I can’t say I “know” something is true, when the facts don’t add up. It wouldn’t be honest to myself or others.
Except the Bible is the foundation that upholds True Christianity…we true believers have more marbles than all other so call holy books of the world
Frankly, this is all just sad. You cannot “prove” the book true, and you cannot “prove” it false.
Saying Joseph started the church for money is incredibly foolish, as it not only cost him his life, but many torture sessions and prison time as well.
Using science to prove this religion wrong, also foolish. Mormon doctrine is officially that evolution happened. The physical laws we discover are all tools God can use. And if it really comes down to it, the answer is “we dont know, but we will try to learn all we can.”
The greed of the leaders, give me a break. Have you seen the prophet’s house? Not impressive.
People attack the church…..why? It does massive humanitarian effort, it gives a structure, and it makes some people happy. On those merits alone, it deserves praise. The hatred comes from a lack of understanding.
To those who use highminded words and a large sense of victorious pride in their arguments against this blogger, back off. Your arguments are no stronger than his. The church at its core is a good thing, true or not. Don’t tear it down.
I have been on both sides of this line. I gave up on the church. I left it behind me. But i came back because life is better with it. Even if it isnt true.
There is no proving or disproving. One either has “faith” or they do not. The “proofs” usually fall somewhat flat and only garner ridicule.
I have a distrust of any “religion” or denomination that is more interested in their ideas and “brand” than what Jesus taught.
Reading the biblical reference for #8, it is immediately clear that the ‘sticks’ are not referring to christianity and the lds church, but are talking about the old and new covenants. I understand the impulse to use biblical references to reinforce your religion, but please please please use scripture to discern truth–not to fit your beliefs.
Definitely is.
This is a joke!! LDS are great people but come on. Really? Why are you confusing yourselves. The Gospel of the Bible is simple. Silly Mormons
You have all been duped! As an Ex-Mormon, and I thank Yahuah (God, and His original hebrew name) that I am no longer involved in all of the lies, I have come across SOLID evidence that Mormonism is a hoax. You believe Zion is in Mosourri??!!? WoW! This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard because geographically that would be impossible considering the Bible clearly states that the Garden of Eden and everything else such as Mount Ephraim/Zion is in the East— aka Africa.
And all this whiteness talk is a load of bull CONSIDERING THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE ARE OF DARKSKINNED RACES— but Mormons didn’t allow them into the church?! Why is that? Because the TRUTH would have been revealed!?!!
The true children of Ysrael are the dark skinned races (fyi I’m “white”) the curses in Deut 28 are about them and the promise is with THEM— and all who obey the laws in the bible— which are still to be followed— so every time ya’ll eat pork just know that you are SINNING! Praying over an unclean beast will not save you. “Jesus aka Cesare Borgia” is the false name and the picture you worship is of a homosexual murderer.
Yahshua is the Messiah’s true name and he was the example we must follow. We are to follow the laws given by The Father to then gain eternal life— he did not fulfill the laws to complete them and get rid of them as he clearly states in Matthew 5:17-19.
No matter how many times you read it it doesn’t say the laws are no more and he definitely didn’t make up a new set of laws in D&C— those mormon laws are an abomination!
Joseph Smith is a thief, a liar, and a murderer— and rapist and a fraud. A sick sick man!
You are all blind and must wake up and get out of religion— religion is treacherous and deceiving.
I just find it unbelievable that lds can’t open their eyes to see the blatant plagiarism in the book of mormon. Google “Mormonism Disproved-Plagiarism”. There is a side by side table that is very easy to witness this plagiarism with comment on the side pointing out changes etc. Andy yet lds go blindly forward believing the con artist JS. If that isn’t enough the fraudulent book of Abraham is glaring. LDS have NO excuse before God for buying into this false doctrine. I can only imagine on the day of judgement , God asking them about the failed prophesies of JS , the fraudulent BOA and the plagiarized BOM etc etc etc. LDS will not have a leg to stand on for believing in this false prophet JS……..again I would encourage seeking LDS to google “Mormonism Disproved – plagiarism”
I’ve heard all the arguments against them. Arguing against their interpretation of the bible is ludicrous, and all ti does it make both sides sound like bigoted closed-minded nuts.
Mormons have pictures of christ on the cross, they just don’t have it on top of their church. Just because they don’t worship in the same way as you doesn’t mean that they don’t follow Christ. For the record, I’m agnostic. I think you’re a bit silly to believe in Christ, but I’m not going to tell you what you do and don’t believe.
Jon B,
What drives them? The desire to liberate the captive and….some bitterness. Once you are free, you want to help others. Some do it aggressively, others are more discreet. In fact, as a Cultural Mormon, I go to church every Sunday. I probably sit next to you and your adorable family and I possibly teach your daughters in Young Women’s. Us, crazy non-believers, we’re EVERYWHERE.
I am so happy for you that your testimony is unshakeable. That’s a really humble place for you to be. Since it is so unbreakable, I challenge you to read An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins. No worries, it’s not Anti-Mormon. The man that wrote it was a seminary teacher for decades and his desire has always been to stay in the church. Maybe you already know everything talked about in it….Kinderhook Plates, the witness’s records of never actually seeing anything with their real eyes, and the many, many, many very different accounts of the first vision (all written by J.S.) Check it out. I am sure you already know it all, and I’m sure it won’t shake the unshakeable…after reading that, watch the Jonestown documentary and listen to the followers talk about when the “knew” what he was preaching was true and the burning in their bosom and how they can’t explain how they just knew, but that God gave them personal revelation. It might sound eerily similar. There’s a religion gene and you just might have it. We’re just trying to stop you before you drink the proverbial koolaid like they did in Jonestown, or at the very least we’re trying to get you a 10% raise.
I once had a communication from an English vicar who believed that Joseph Smith had discovered the Book of Mormon on a hill in Jerusalem in 600 BC! How does one answer that? Well, I did, I had to. I wrote to that vicar and bore my testimony of the truthfullness of the Book of Mormon – didn’t have any affect on him!
My question for all the critics is this – How come 15 million people can be duped by a man who has been dead since 1844?
And. it has been said already HAVE YOU READ THAT BOOK?
If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet, the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is the same church Christ established while he was on earth.
uh, actually it’s not as simply as that.
1. Joseph Smith “wrote/translated” the Book of Mormon between the ages 22 and nearly 25 years age – not a “boy”. He was by measurements of the time, well educated in the bible as well as local history and folklore of surrounding native American history. During the time of his “writing/translating” of the Book of Mormon, he was also accompanied by a well educated man, Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith struggled to write the first 116 pages. Once those pages were lost, and Joseph Smith no longer accepted the assistance of Martin Harris, all writing stopped. Writing did not resume until Oliver Cowdery came, and then it picked up pace dramatically compared to the “writing/translating” under the scribe/assistance of Martin Harris.
Historically accurate? What part of the Book of Mormon has ever been proven to be “historically” accurate? And outside of copied text from the Bible, what part of the Book of Mormon has been prophetic in nature – so far as “prophecy” coming to.
2. Writing styles can and were, copied/imitated. Also, the same can be said about the errors and inaccuracies of the same, contained in the book. The book was initially published with well over 3000 errors, and contrary to ill-informed Mormon apologists, these were not simply “grammatical” error.
3. Please provide an example of “findings”, contained in the Book of Mormon, that have only recently been discovered, that were mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
4. Semitic names. Again, copied and/or imitated. This is an extremely loose example of proof of authenticity of a writing.
5. Really? asking what satan would or would not do in order to prove it was from God? Satan was allowed to tempt Christ himself! We are warned of “false spirits”. It is complete nonsense to suggest that satan would not attempt to deceive or mislead, simply because his words may lead a few to Christ. After all, don’t Mormon’s believe the satan’s goal was in fact the exact same as Christ’s? Satan just had a different way of going about it.
6. Other Sheep? Could be anyone, no? Do we understand every word that has been written in scripture? No. Then how is it that someone can pick specific words and be so certain, when clearly there are any number of reasons/explanations. Again, this is not proof, but merely one persons (or in the case of an entire church, many peoples) “belief”.
7. I can’t even take this statement seriously. No one ever spoke of “the great spirit” among American indian tribes before or during the life time of Joseph Smith? Are you serious?
8. Ok. You really need to do some more research before coming up with such lists. To address this statement I will direct you to the following article;
http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/religion-beliefs/mormons/the-stick-of-judah-and-the-stick-of-joseph/
9. Several of the “witnesses” later in life, explained that they saw the gold plates with their “spiritual eyes”, or that they were “in the spirit” when the plates were “revealed” to them. This can be attested to by the story of the first 3 witnesses; Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer. All of whom testify that an angel revealed the plates to them – They did not actually sit down at the table with Joseph Smith and look upon the plates with their own eyes, as the Mormon church would like all to believe by the incomplete and vague “witness” of all the men.
10. Ah! an accurate statement – sort of. While there is no contradiction, as far as I am aware, within the writings of the Book of Mormon, there is a rather long list of contradictions within Mormon doctrine when compared to what is written in the Book of Mormon. And that, could be a whole other discussion!
Good luck with your “research”, you’ve got a long way to go.
What about the mound builders? This is not from the Mormon Church. It is from the state of Ohio. https://www.ohiohistory.org/visit/museum-and-site-locator/fort-hill-earthworks “You can hike to a stone and earthen-walled Hopewell hilltop enclosure at the top of Fort Hill. With a circumference of 1 ½ miles, it has 33 gateways and, on the inside, a large ditch. (You’ll find a similar fort-style enclosure 50 miles away at Fort Ancient”
Many other states have mounds that fit the description of Mormon’s cities.
Alma 53:4
4 And he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height.
The Hopewell culture that inhabited them lived in the United States from 200 BC to 500 Ad. It is still a mystery to many of these states. Fort Hill is just one of hundreds of these sites that have been found in the last hundred years.
I don’t care to leave a detailed response with sources because your article lacked sources.
So here’s my 1 minute rebuttal:
1. Copious plagiarism
2. Yes, as it’s in the plagiarized source material
3. No it doesn’t. The wilderness descriptions are a vague fit at best.
4. Of the 200, few are semitic & most of those are plagiarized.
5. Plagiarism.
6. The Bible, especially the Gospels, is not historical. If I was writing Jesus fan-fic, I would leverage Biblical passages.
7. WTF? So giant insects invading towns is real too?
8. see 6
9. Some of the 8 denied. Martin Haris denied the literal nature of the written account. Lying was also viewed harshly.
10. Millions of people have found contradictions with the Book of Mormon. You just choose to twist the words of the Book to say something else. Self delusion is your prerogative.
And the most important question of how I feel when I read it: Bored.
Most active believing members have admitted as much.
#plainAndPrecious
After having searched for years and investigating many churches which teach much truth, I always felt something was lacking. I compare it to eating stale saltines. But after finding and scrutinizing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints…..I found the feast. I love it when the “haters” try to condemn the Church of Jesus Christ for it is just as they did in ancient days……they condemned Him……as they persecuted Him, so they persecute His church.
Joshua wellborn I’ve read the Bible and the book of Mormon many times so explain how in isaiah he talks about the unlearned man taking the book to get translated and the learned man said he cannot read a sealed book that actually happened! Or how about the fact that in the latter pages the book of Mormon says that God’s servant shall be hurt but he shall heal him what could joseph read the future also. Or how about in the book of Mormon were it describes the husbandry of the olive tree’s the pruning and grafting in and burning that is actually how they are taken care of and the first book on that wasn’t written until 100 years after the book of Mormon was written and even then it was first published in French! .
You have an unfair advantage in your bashing because we aren’t supposed to do it. Politically though, the restored church’s view of Christ has no reason to be the one of RC traditional that the protestants emanate from. We are pre-Nicean as are the Egyptian Copts and the Eastern Catholics or Orthodox.
So is John Smyth at beginning of baptist tradition less of a character than Joseph Smith? And that John Smyth didn’t even attempt to write a book–his evolving theology would have been worse than a few editorial corrections IMO. You don’t stick to those early church originators in Amsterdam and yet will weigh in with the traditionally and institutionally taught criticisms of the 1800’s church and not judge as Jesus taught in King James version when the Jews were calling him Devil sent for miracles and man-helping stuff? “By their fruits” and “A house divided”
And we can read James and even read the apocryphal and apocalyptic Book of Enoch, and accept scientific discoveries, not being locked into Christianity at Christ advent but the longer view that God gave Adam His gospel tenets as He walked and talked with him in the Garden. Works for me, one of your non selected elites, damned to hell by you doctrine.
What did Christ do for me that you can enlighten on? In the universal message of the old hymn, “If i be lifted Up I bring All Men to Me?” I’ll take Christ’s universalistic message over any other.
Who comes to Christ but with a contrite spirit and a broken heart through repentance?
That you would invite all to participate in your truth is commendable however.
How do I know which of the many different branches of Mormonism that have or that do believe in the Book of Mormon is the true branch?
But you spoke now with that Spirit?
Judge not? The mote in the LDS eye so much easier to see than the beam in yours? One Mormon truism–we give ourselves;ves away with each word we speak *or write?
If I should not bible bash or contend religion is it also a taboo or should it be that I cannot go on the political attack? And how much of the religion bashing is political?
o
We have to use you bible and checklist for the discussion of course?
Maybe Luther or the other men during the protestant reformation had it wrong or IMO not entirely right.
We hardly need to prove our one true church things to each other though all groups vertically and horizontally have that in theirs. Keeps the communities together and pretty foolish they who do not claim to have the truth and then stay in it and evangelize it.
Poetically speaking with license to say what want and be solely responsible for, What if all churches have a part of the truth as willed by the Lord of the Universe and Mater of all? What if the religions were mixed at babel when the languages were? What iif ideas came and went through time and across the world with inspirations and then wars and genocides.
What if all who claim to worship Christ then acted like it and we met on common ground of the very basic Biblical Christ messages and worked to help prepare a world for His second advent?
The Abrahamic traditions of awaiting the second advent of Jesus the Christ, The Jewish messiah and the Muslim 12th Iman?
Believing In Jesus or believing him (Plagiarizing a book title) We better lest we be those left crying “Lord, lord..” and I am talking of noone but self.
The Baptism scenario in the bible works for me.
Also in the apostolic church and persecutions when the roman Jews named the Christians as monotheistic and the Arian and Anasthasians were debating?
It comes down to outsiders interpreting the doctrines of others? The Apostolic church must have taken Jesus at his words in crediting all to His father. His call of ‘Abba” as He looks upward… How does that resonate to a heart?
then the Godhead vs the Trinity is key to the differences?
How many times has the bible been “amplified”? And interpreted by followers of men who get spiritual callings or do they testify before their congregations. How are those callings by God stated and accepted? Give me a break?
Be in Hell with the other Mormons and we would work our way out. LOL LDS Hell has a backdoor and the principle of eternal progression. They might leave me in to cook longer since I will gladly politically contend and did in the Mitt Romney election cycle to little avail since obviously wasn’t God’s will.
So what is that will now/ And why? I have no clue but a coming together of his supplicants would help. For Hid sake we try to walk in His ways?
I cannot believe some people think this way in telling evidance, this artical is shameful !!!!!! to make the story short ,, you got the god head !! why in mormonism there is three gods when Jesus had only one god ? see there is no proof
Thank you so very much for what you shared!! I know with out a doubt this Book is true! I have read it again and again and have learned something new each time. I also know Joseph Smith was a true prophet! We just finished studying the doctrine and covenants and things the prophet went through. Broke my heart having to read them. He is my hero! Once again thank you. Your testimony of what you shared truly is a burning light in this ever so dark world.
As every Christian should know, for every good truth that is stated, 10 sources with “proof” rise up to deny it. Then as each and every one of those sources gets desputed and debunked with more truth, 10 more sources will rise up and deny each truth. Those people that need proof before they will believe will have been successfully distracted by Satan, and in time will disbelieve all the truth.
The same goes for the Book of Mormon. Those Christians who get too distracted by all of Satans distractions will not be able to feel the Holy Ghost testify of its truth. They will continue to chase, cite, and recite those distractions while ignoring all the truths.
I was your religion once, I didn’t find God there either and I wasn’t a lazy believer, I threw myself into it, was a “missionary” for the faith as well. Guess what? I didn’t find God or what you claim as the truth.
I read the book of Mormon, Morman taught his followers that he had a testimony of Jesus Christ and encouraged all to learn all they can about the God of Abraham because the God of Abraham is the true God. I don’t see a problem with that .Mormon never taught any one to believe other than the word of God. Thank you for your service, I learned a lot from the marines at fex and deployment
It actually is true. I’m a historian and found that the kingdoms did exist. The places and things in the middle east have been proven to have existed. Do your research unbelievers and you’ll see that the book of Mormon is true and the bible cannot exist without it because they connect. I’m lds but wanted to do research on it and found out much on everything. So do yours if you don’t believe.
I only made it question #1 then stopped reading.
“historically accurate”? In no universe is the BoM historically accurate. There are so many anachronisms and impossibilities it has become silly to claim any sort of accuracy.
Almost anywhere would be an improvement
I loved this!
I would add to your great list:
#11 How could such a complex, non-contradictory book be written by dictation without going back to edit or revise (except for a couple words here and there) previous text?
In the end none of this murmuring matters. When the time comes are you going to accept Jesus Christ as your savior? Are you going to accept his gospel? When he stands before you go proclaim his truth are you going to accept or deny it? That is the wonderful thing about free agency! It’s both marvelous and risky at the same time. For those of you that don’t know any better God is a fair and just God. If you don’t accept his word here on the earth you will be given yet another chance in the spirit world. If you open your mind and heart to the simple truth here on earth before we go back how greater the blessings and glory you will receive! If you reject it now on the earth well you will learn soon enough but lost is the glory that could have been. Love each other with a soft and humble heart for love is stronger then hate and can cure all things!
Many of the same arguments could be made regarding Scientology. Read some of John Travolta’s comments regarding the documentary ‘Going Clear’. They might sound familiar.
the heavens made it clear to me 19 years ago that Brother Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon out of his own spirit from what he then believed. As he was a relatively pure spirit, raised on the Bible, he did and could write it And I am LDS. And not lying or making it up. We have a major problem Houston.
Interesting post, Greg. Thanks for posting this. I have taken more than an hour reading the comments and smiling at them (i did not finish reading all of the comments). Like you said, many (not all) of those who are most ready to debunk the book have not read it. The response from many many readers is so interesting, which really brings to the fore how polarizing the topic is. Again, many of the comments divert from the book itself but segue into the other beliefs in the church, and their own experiences. That is to be expected. I like to read the long intelligent responses to your post, and some of the less-intelligent ones, the more vehement, they are also interesting to read just to appreciate the depth of emotion they feel about the subject of the church.
There will not be an end to the discussions on the topic, and that is all right. We are all unique, members or non-members alike, and we all have our own strong opinions on any subject. That is also all right. It is sad when there are people who would use words to belittle and ridicule another person just because of his or her own belief. I cannot see that as beneficial in any way. It hurts the one who is ridiculed, but it also hurts the speaker, in more ways than we can imagine, whatever your belief system may be.
mormons invite all people to read the book of mormon, and then let that person decide for themselves. if we have decided not to read the book of mormon, we should disqualify ourselves from ever commenting on it. (i know, many would disagree on this last point.)
for example, you cannot say mathematics is wrong if you have never studied mathematics. and even when we have learned mathematics, if we ever stop practicing the math skills we learned, those skills will grow dull. so we study together, we do math together. and if someone does not know how to perform addition, or subtraction, we either teach them, or point them to a place where they can learn. you see, math is for everyone, and everyone should learn it.
and i think this is how mormons feel about the book of mormon, and the principles in it.
Others may think you a fool, opening your mouth, or writing it down, removes all doubt. Please don’t make a fool of yourself further by exposing your complete lack of knowledge about DNA. This is precisely the kind of nonsense Mormons used to use with Archeology and the triumphant “Tree of Life” stone that used to be prominently displayed in the visitor’s center on Temple Square. Until it was removed after being made the object of derision towards Mormon false claims about it and what it was supposed to be. Ever wonder why there isn’t any Archeological Department at BYU. There used to be. Or at least many archeological expeditions, until the head of the Department left the school and the Church over the nonsense of The Book of Mormon. If you watch DNA and Mormonism today, you will see more than one distraught Mormon scientist, all of whom have since left the Church, trying to come to terms with the absolutely conclusive results that there is no connection whatever with ANY Native culture let alone the source for ALL of them, that by the 80’s became “not all of them”, the 90’s speculation it was confined to a relatively small area in Central America (so many problems there as to be absurd) to scientific evidence that ther is NO genetic evidence anywhere in the Americas for Jewish or any other Middle East ancestry.
By the way, the DNA study tracing the lineage of humanity had to be approached for information. The reaction to the enquiry was that it was considered laughable at best. None of them had any idea of this religious claim so they had no bias.
The fact that you used the word “conclusive” in generational DNA comparisons shows you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, but more likely drank the koolaid from a website that knew equally as little as you about the science of genetics. Again you show your ignorance by saying “let alone the source for ALL of them” (referring to Native cultures in the Americas). If you had a clue you’d know the Book of Mormon doesn’t claim that “ALL” American Indians are descendants of Lehi and that other peoples (present before and during Lehi’s family history) are mentioned in the same record. Thus your “conclusions” and “conclusive results” are meaningless as they’re built on fallacious parameters.
I remember replying to this post months ago but my response doesn’t seem to be here anymore, so I’ll reply in short once again. Sticks and stones Joe, your name calling does nothing to support your unfounded, naive comment. “Ever wondered/Archaeology” — There are far better places to study archaeology, places that actually have meaningful sites within easy travel distance. You learn archaeology best by getting in the dirt. Have you been on any digs? I have. In Israel. Pretty hard to do archaeology when you don’t know where to dig, let alone what you expect to find there. It isn’t a science to randomly go dig in the dirt and make conclusions based on what you do and don’t find in a random location. As the locations for the events in the Book of Mormon aren’t known what good is the science of archaeology in making any presumptions? None. Outside generalizations and opinions with zero grounding in fact. If I start looking in your backyard for something buried in my backyard I’m clearly not going to find anything relevant. But to then make generalizations and conclusions on my non-discovery is clearly bad science and fully wrong. As are your “conclusive” conclusions about the importance of archaeological “evidence” concerning the Book of Mormon.
As for DNA if you don’t have correct and comparable samples for comparison then you can’t make any conclusions at all. If you knew anything about DNA beyond what you watched on “DNA and Mormonism” (one of the most biased, slanted, unenlightened presentations available), you would be aware that the conclusions they tried to “test” for were wrong to begin with. Where you got the impression that Lehi’s descendants were “the source for ALL” native cultures in America is beyond reason, and not from the Book of Mormon. If you’d taken the time to read the book yourself you’d be aware that the Book of Mormon itself tells of people that didn’t cross the ocean with Lehi being present during the same time…ergo your conclusion is false. Thus trying to test for a false assumption to begin with will never reveal proper results. If you say the Mormon church thinks the sun is purple and black for example (which the church does NOT claim), then run tests to find that its NOT purple and black you can’t then say, with any reliability or support, that the church’s claim (that the sun is purple and black) is false; especially if you use the term “absolutely conclusive results”!
Bias isn’t the issue, false assumptions are the issue. As I said before, if your supposition is false to begin with any tests you run to confirm your “theory” will be inconclusive and of no value whatsoever. The problem here is you think you’re correct–then you presume falsely what the LDS church believes–then you go find tests to prove those conclusions are false. But all you really prove is that you have no idea what you’re talking about!
As I’ve stated earlier, your assumption is based on an unlikely interpretation of a single relevant word in the BoM. The word is, “alone.” The BoM never gives the popular myth interpretation of that word that is often ignorantly accepted by many Mormons who haven’t spent the time to investigate it thoroughly.
A Semitic view of being “alone” as a covenant people in the midst of other cultures is ubiquitous in ancient Hebrew texts to the point that no serious anthropologist would stake their reputation on an assertion to the contrary. So if the family of Lehi was of Semitic origin, and the family of Lehi wasn’t actually alone in terms of the presence of other humans on the continent, and if one of the principal reasons the Lamanites were angry with the Nephites was because the Nephites wound up in possession of the plates of brass that would be needed to claim power and leadership on the basis of needing them to teach an indigenous people that massively outnumbered the tiny family of Lehi, then even with the broadest samples you could reasonably obtain from modern descendants of those indigenous people, your odds of getting a hit on more than a thousand years of diluted genetic markers would be statistically lower than getting struck by lightening. And that is on the basis of a genuine understanding of DNA computational studies as they are really applied in order to research ethnic history and origins. What’s more, you don’t even have to confine yourself to a tiny portion of Central America for that to be the case. Much like the team of scientists that isolated the mitochondrial Eve believed that there were a great many other human females contemporary to her whose mitochondrial DNA is simply lost and inaccessible to us, it is not even a tiny stretch – more like a yawn really – to accept that the maternal mitochondrial DNA of Lehi’s family may not be accessible in any modern descendants of the indigenous peoples Lehi’s family encountered on arrival in the Americas – a concept you cannot deny and simultaneously claim to understand DNA studies of the type we’re talking about here.
The actual text of the BoM supports this interpretation of the family of Lehi meeting and becoming the teachers and leaders of an indigenous people in the America’s in fairly strong terms, regardless of your biased reliance the popular myth is that is often accepted by Mormons of older generations. The older generations simply had no need to question the myth because it simply wasn’t a point of faith that really concerned them due to the absence of DNA technology when the myth was born. Not that the question wasn’t occasionally raised in other forms though, especially when you consider that the numbers associated with the first two generations of the family of Lehi after they arrived in the Americas don’t seem to support a population of adequate size to sustain wars between civilizations without the existence of indigenous peoples prior to the arrival of Lehi’s family. You see, even Mormons are evolving in the understanding of their own cannon over time.
It is also interesting to note that the archaeological record of known writing systems in Mesoamerica experienced an explosion in close proximity to the BoM timeline for the arrival of the family of Lehi in the Americas. Civilizations were transformed by it, and literacy goes hand in hand with power, especially in historical Semitic cultures, or as the BoM puts it in accounts of Lamanite complaints against the Nephites in Mosiah 10:
“15 And again, they were wroth with him when they had arrived in the promised land, because they said that he had taken the ruling of the people out of their hands; and they sought to kill him.
16 And again, they were wroth with him because he departed into the wilderness as the Lord had commanded him, and took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, for they said that he robbed them.”
Of course, none of this constitutes proof of the BoM. But it does demonstrate the challenges of trying to disprove the BoM on the basis of a collision between your Bias against a culture vs an absurdly incomplete body of evidence for or against the actual content of the book standing in isolation of that culture – the negative side of which can’t seem to drive a nail into the BoM that stands the test of time. By the standards of my faith, the ever expanding body of evidence in favor of the BoM’s veracity can likely never rise to the level of an empirical absolute proof of the BoM, and I personally believe that is probably by divine design. But the constantly expanding body of facts being provided by genuine scientific discovery performed by unbiased and often oblivious scientists with no interest in, and perhaps no knowledge of debates like this one serves to help many Mormons deepen their understanding of the their own cannon – and through that understanding they achieve deeper faith.
In the end, belief in the BoM is a matter of faith. That simply can’t be denied. I see many Mormon posters in this thread that are still working on getting to a level were they truly understand this concept. It also does not offend me. As such, they will continue to learn wisdom until they eventually arrive at a conclusion that the BoM tendency to defy honest, definitive assessment by raw empirical methods is at once more demanding of their faith and at the same time all the more rewarding because of it.
And yet methods proposed by detractors of the BoM to disprove the book’s content continue to struggle when judged by their own standards of quality without ever ever having to bring obviously pro biased standards of faith into the mix. This still fascinates me, but I’ve long since left their struggle behind as a basis for my faith. It would be a weak basis indeed. Instead, I find much greater fascination with the positive outcomes of explicit faith in the BoM for individuals. I am also fascinated in how faith grows as understanding deepens even when it means that old assumptions are stripped away. But that last sentence could just as easily be applied by an atheist quantum physicist when discussing their work at CERN when cast in light of the fact that for a scientist to achieve understanding, they must also exercise the faith required to “stand on the shoulders of giants.” It would surprise me if a similar level of honesty would not also apply to matters of faith. Indeed, the BoM even suggests that this is so (Alma 32).
How can any thinking person that has read just a bit of the history of Joseph Smith still believe Mormonism was born out of anything other than an elaborate scam? It’s a crystal clear example of how religion blinds people.
It takes courage to think for yourself and really SEE the truth… Mormons seems to lack to courage to admit that the book of Mormon is not a good book and they brainwash themselves into thinking it is good and that is a dangerous thing to do.
If Christ’s Gospel was on the Earth, who would want to destroy it the most? I don’t see many anti-Lutheran, or many anti Baptist. I have read the book of Mormon, I have pondered and prayed fervently for the answer. I did receive my witness of the truthfulness of its teachings and know that it is true. God lives, and directs us through a prophet even today, when we need it most.
An old thread, but still hotly debated.
To each his own.
To those who believe, no facts are needed,
to those who do not believe, there are never enough facts.
What I will say is that just because I do not believe what you do, does NOT make me anti-Mormon. A lot of Mormons think this.
They also seem to revel in being persecuted, which means you don’t agree with them, which mean you are anti-Mormon, which mean you are somehow persecuting them. Go figure.
Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before your God. This is what God requires of us all. Do this and you are a child of God.
All one has to do is look up DNA verses the book of mormon and if you can honestly give me true logical information on it I will except it.
I was athiest. And argued my points very well. Even making belivers question their faith. After I had my first born son I went through a serious case of post pardum depression. The kind where you can relate to the women who kill their children. Death is a very scary and unknown thing. Even to some of the most religious. Obviously there are still some very faithful people here still questioning and searching for answers. When Ibwould lay awake at night and feel the dark closing inin, to keep it at bay I would think of all the people I loved and wish for their individual needs to be met. It was then that I realized my “prayers” were being answered. Then I opened my top chakra. In ways best left to shaman. After you literally look down on yourself, feel how we are all connected, realize you are being heard, that your mind is being read or your cthoughts downloaded somewhere, that you can no longer deny God. And that there is a plan. And that we know nothing. But you know he answers, if you ask, in humility, in meekness, willing to listen and obey. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Wisdom and pride are not favorable traits. Thinking yourself intelligent is very dangerous if you seek the truth. There will always be the holier than thou, more educated, more “religious” people telling you that you have it wrong. Aren’t those the people that crucified Jesus? The Messiah? The Son of God? That the LDS church and Joseph Smith cause such hostilityand receive so extreme persecution is one reason I have even more faith in it. Because that’s what it takes to follow Christ. Faith. Unyeilding, undenying, fearful faith that as you ask Him to be led, he will not let you down. He has led me to the LDS church and they have answers to questions never asked before in history. In a day in age where the answers are conceivable. Trust in the Holy Ghost. And no one else.
You ‘was athiest (sic)?’ So was I, and I’m still a proud member of that persuasion.
His chosen people are Jewish. That is just going back to the roots. He has always wanted to be worshipped in temples. In keeping your body holy, clean, in a Temple where the reception is really good to talk to Him, mostly because of having clean souls around and the spires that reach into the sky probably help… Good reception, like the top of a mountain. You really can talk to God. Just ask Him, he’ll tell you what’s true. But you have to be ready to hear it, and to live by the implications of that Truth. Do not deny the Holy Ghost. It is unforgivable.
I have a question. Why would God make one religion for the whole world to have to follow in order to have everlasting life? This doesn’t make sense. 7billion on the planet. Only 14million Mormons and only about half who are active, and only about half of that who are temple worthy. But just say all Mormons were active and temple worthy and did all the things Joseph said needed to be done to return to God. Only a drop in the bucket of the human race gets eternal life?
Why would God, who according to Joseph, make so many requirements to have eternal life and be with their family forever after death? Why is it so complicated? If you don’t pay tithing, among other requirements, to go to the temple you can’t be sealed to your family. Paying money is part of the process to eternal life, and any educated and active Mormon knows this. Does that sound like a loving and just God? Common sense tells me no.
I would like a Mormon to explain this.
And just because there are people who see through Joseph’s BS doesn’t make them “anti Mormon”. I am born and raised, of the covenant you could say. Sealed to my parents. Attended seminary. Went on a mission. Waves numerous callings. Went to the grove numerous times in my life. Met my wife in YSA. I had a testimony. But never did have that special feeling reading the Book of Mormon. My testimony came from other aspects of the church. And only based on the information I learned in church and church books.
But as I thought more about the doctrines, things did not add up, like what I have previously mentioned. And I’ve had the feeling, the “spirit”, when doing something that was good or listening to good music, or hearing a heart warming story. This feeling is a placebo effect I concluded.
And I began to actually educate myself about the church and The things they don’t teach, cause why would they.
The bom claims to be a record of the natives. DNA has proven natives are 99% Asian. Boa was proven false translation. And the Bom has been “corrected” over time. JS was not a boy when he wrote it. And uneducated doesn’t mean dumb or unimaginative. With help from Oliver Cowdry to be more eleqoent in speech, the bible to use for reference, and using existing names he could have easily wrote the Bom. Look at what JRR tolken, or CS Lewis, or even George Lucas did on their own from their own mind. They created completely and complex new worlds and with just as much principle to their stories as the BOM.
If the church brings you happiness, great! But it’s sad to see people making big life decisions based on JS story and religion.
Because I have seen through Joseph’s BS doesn’t make me anti. I just believe in the importance of absolute truth so life decisions aren’t made based on half truths. It can mess up lives.
The Mormon church is a joke. It is a mean spirited anti-gay organization filled with bigots and hate mongers. They should be ashamed of themselves. Let’s not even get into the communes of underage girls being raped in the name of Mormonism. Gross.
Greg,
I know I am late to the party on this one, but I hope you may still be monitoring comments here.
Would you be willing to have an abbreviated conversation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon?
I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true.
By saying that, what do I mean?
I have read it, studied it, prayed about it and have had spiritual experiences related to this study and prayer. This would be considered a standard “testimony” as I was taught growing up.
I have had spiritual experiences in the context of reading and praying about the Book of Mormon.
However, the Book of Mormon is not true.
Hmmmmm.
Why do I say that?
Despite my spiritual experiences, it does not change the unalterable fact that the Book of Mormon teaches a false plan of salvation.
Would you be willing to talk about how one could possible reconcile spiritual experiences with the fact that the Book of Mormon teaches false doctrine and so can’t be true?
Of course if you are willing to talk about this, I have made some pretty strong statements that you may not agree with. So we would probably start there.
But it is all open and clear. God himself even admits to this problem, so I have that as evidence as well.
Would you be open to that?
All the best.
It’s all a fraud. Thank god they stay out west. Don’t come to New Orleans. You will be run out of town
The best instructors teach by example. From this point forward, keep a tally of how often you hear a general authority, stake president, bishop, use the phrase “I know,” vs. “I believe.” Members are “instructed” by the examples set by their leadership. Therefore, the Church instructs members to say “I know.”
I being a convert was always sceptical of the BOM. The Bible no problem. It wasn’t until in my mission on the Navajo reservation. When I heard from them of their history, even that of the god who came and taught their ancestors. Never in a million years would I expect to hear that. I learned of the divinity of the book of Mormon from them. By serving them.
I respect your belief. I can tell you when I knew the Book of Mormon was true–in my basement bedroom, as a teenager, reading the entire book in one week, and coming to 3 Nephi and just weeping as Christ appeared to the Nephites. I have read the book dozens of times, and its messages are woven into my heart and mind.
Fast forward to today: I think it’s “true”. But I no longer think it is an actual historical record of real people that was translated by a 19th century farmboy into English. I’m pretty sure it’s a 19th century document (for many reasons…). And it is also full of truth–more truthiness than most things I’ve read. I certainly can’t deny it’s enormous impact in my life and the lives of most of my friends and family. But for me those other things–Joseph Smith being a prophet, the Church being the True Church of Christ, etc., those things just don’t follow for me anymore. In much the same way as I came to know the BoM is “true”, I came to understand that it probably isn’t what it was purported to me to be. Many evidences over time.
I respect that others believe it is a translation of an ancient document with great spiritual implications. I just don’t think it is myself, anymore.
Validity draws fire?
That’s a truely absurd statement.
Excrement draws flies.
The Book of Mormon is neither well written or ancient, and no one denies it exists.
Please, sir, work on you logic.
The very first question presented shows the dishonest nature of this topic. Joseph was not a boy when he wrote the book of mormon. A simple google search shows he was in his mid twenties.
More important questions to ask are things like “Where is the evidence of all the cultures and cities, DNA, etc?”.
Even the story of the Jaredites is contingent on there having been an actual global flood and subsequent Tower of Babel just a few thousand years ago. We know for actual FACT that no such events occurred. Case closed, the BOM is not historical and therefor Mormonism is bogus.
Greg,
Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that “God” cursed some of the people living in the Americas 2500 years ago with a “black” skin? That assertion alone relegates the book of mormon to 19th century fiction. If you really do believe that, you need to question what kind of a God you are worshipping.
Q10: How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? I believe you’ll find the answer here — https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/5.15-16?lang=eng and I’ll show myself out now.
To who this post is for. My testimony of the book of Mormon came without lots of prayer and searching if it were true. I was seeking knowledge of God’s wI’ll for me concerning a particular path he wanted me to pursue. I was sharing my desires in a 12 step meeting and a person I hadn’t met before approached me afterwards. He suggested that I read Mosiah Chapter 4, he said that it covers all of the 12 steps. I went home and opened my book of Mormon that my wife gave me for our Anniversary. I don’t like reading things out of context so I began my reading at the 1st chapter of Mosiah (King Benjamins final discoures). The spirit opened my spiritual eye and I beheld many truths to creating freedom and peace within and then bringing freedom and peace too many. I received my answer and gained testimony that the Book of Mormon is Another Testiment of Christ and he reveals and speaks his will to me as I earnestly seek to hear from him. If a dictator or even Satan wants to control the hearts and minds of others remove them from God the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ the Savior of his world that he paid the ultimate price for. From the depths of my soul I emplore anyone who reads this to not fall victim to the precepts of men or Satan himself and pray to Father in the name of Jesus Christ to know their will for you and pick up the Book of Mormon and read. It’s my prayer that you will feel the nearness of your creator as I have and still do. Peace and Love!
You have the gall to label commenters as weird, when your are a believer in the weirdest cult known to man?
When you say “the book of mormon is true” What exactly is “true” about it. It is like saying..The Lord of the rings is true. You have made a claim – now follow up with proof, otherwise you are a liar and fraud. We are all waiting.
The Book of Mormon is everything it purports to be. Read all of it. Ask God if it is a real testament of Jesus Christ and truth.
Why would these people put on a full court press of criticism to your testimony, if they did not fear that people would believe and that it would be true. I have studied the many point above but describing each and every instance of evidence would take volumes and still those who want to hate and attack would not be convinced. So there is no reason to waste time trying reply to each assault.
I was devout LDS for 30 years. My reason for leaving was not lack of faith in BoM, but the members of the church.
Mormons differ from one state to the next, one ward will be completely welcoming then the next ward is a popularity contest and encourages clicks. Some are accepting no matter what, some judge and back bite like their life depends on it. It was too tiring and emotionally draining. Most Mormons are good people, but a lot also feel they can put their own spin on the faith. A bishop comes into elders quarom and threatens in anger to bring missionaries home if everyone doesn’t participate in fast offerings doesn’t understand the calling. Neighbors shouldn’t be looked at with lesser eyes because they are not members, or maybe they drink. Every ward I was a member of had a different take on how the church functions and how the religion works. They put spins on rules to make themselves feel better about their personal choices.
Point in fact, look at the comments from so called members defending their faith. I see many comments coming from hate and anger rather than peace and understanding. I see them talking down to somone who insulted them or talked bad about their faith to get revenge or to hurt. That is not what Mormonism teaches.
The one that makes people pause is a direct prophecy of the civil war in the Book of Mormon.
If ‘proof’ is what people want, it’s there. Not one, but many instances of ‘proofs’ but if you don’t want to see…
Christ said that blindness and hardheartedness are our choice by our actions not by our will.
If we want to know, we can know.
If we don’t want to see, that’s exactly what we will be given as a consequence to a hard heart that hasn’t figured out ‘faith’, belief in things that are that aren’t seen by physical perception and felt emotionally more than in words, and words can form if one is quiet enough when it is important enough for words to be said.
We lack faith as humans, but every single one of us, at our core, were there when the fight between Christ and Lucifer began. Lucifer, who fell and became Satan, wants every one of us to be as miserable and hateful as we can be. He pushes us to our edge and sometimes beyond, if we leave out God, Christ and the Holy Ghost.
Not sure if it’s already been pointed out, but I figured I’d mention that the quote you paraphrased and attributed to Jesus, you know, the “house decided against itself” schtick, is actually a pretty famous and well known Abraham Lincoln quote.
Oh Jesus. You have been debunked, Greg Trimble. You’re just spewing garbage.
Come to the exMo side. We have cookies.
Good point Darren, I was born in Mexico, never ever heard about me being an Israelite…no true mexican historian or no true historial from the world ,believe in the bom as true history
I have read through the arguments for and against in this thread and I have some thoughts. I’m not presenting any real evidence here scientific or otherwise, just my thoughts.
First. The 11 questions asked by Greg in terms of academic or logical proof building are very unsophisticated in terms of leading towards proving that the BOM is true or factual. I am not trying to be rude but as I read through them they were so laughable I had to recheck to make sure this truly was a website trying to prove Mormonism rather than disprove or mock it. I’m not going to go through each question but lets simply look at the first one. Most people trying to prove a point will put forth one of their strongest arguments first to get the ball rolling.
“Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?”
This question is full of unsubstantiated “facts” and incredibly biased phrasing.
First, an “uneducated boy”. Little about J. Smith’s childhood is verifiable. Much of his youth is “legend’ in the LDS church. The “truth” given by those attempting to establish credibility cannot be taken at face value, so the LDS history of J. Smith must be suspect by anyone trying to get a real picture of this person.
So what can we “know” of Joseph’s education? In terms of verifiable truth, very little. But we can infer certain things. Growing up moving around to different tenant farms his education was most likely sporadic and it’s not unlikely that he only ever finished the 3rd grade. However, to label him as uneducated does in no way preclude him from writing a long, fanciful work of fiction that resembles that of a King James translation of the Bible.
A quick look at several prolific modern writers shows that many of them had little formal education. However, that fact did not stop them from writing some of the greatest works of literature in the last 150 years. The first such person to come to mind is Samuel Clemens better known by his pen name of Mark Twain.
So this first tidbit of supposed evidence in this first question is already suspect.
Second. Could he come up with 531 pages? Of course he could! And of course he didn’t write them when he was 15, he started when he was 19 and, after the original 116 pages were either destroyed or hidden by Lucy Harris, at the age of 22 he began writing them again. He was helped by Lucy’s husband Martin during the first writing and by later by very learned Oliver Cowdrey during the second writing.
I will say here about this event with Lucy Harris that anyone with an unbiased mind would come to the conclusion that Smith could not rewrite the same passages from the golden plates for fear that the first 116 pages could resurface later and prove that he did not write them exactly the same as would be expected having had divine help in translating “scripture”. Thereby proving him a fraud.
Third. “Ancient scripture”. Where to begin with this. While the LDS church believes this to be ancient scripture, that is where this belief begins and ends. In every other major religion there is verifiable proof of the historicity of the scriptures. Islam, Judaism, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian. In each of these there is irrefutable and tangible proofs of the existence of these writings originating back hundreds or thousands of years.
So to call these works “ancient” is a fallacy of false authority. They can of course be called scripture since that epithet is defined by the adherents of a religion themselves.
Fourth. “on his own”. As I stated above he did have the help of both Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdrey in the transcribing of these works. Other than LDS teaching we do not know for certain that the words came only from Smith’s mouth or if it was a combined effort of himself and others.
Fifth. “Historically accurate”. Some of the anti-mormon literature out there is written from the standpoint of Christian authors. Some of which is not well researched or credible. Most of these websites and books seek to discredit the LDS faith by showing the disparity between LDS scripture and Judeo/Christian scriptures.
However, the amount of scientifically researched historical debunking of the BOM is voluminous, easily obtainable, peer reviewed and verified. Pick almost any given purportedly historical fact from the BOM and you will find well researched, well argued and scientifically backed reasons why they could not have happened. It is no wonder the LDS church has moved away from the ridiculous statement that the Semitic immigrants to the Americas written about in the BOM, are the forefathers of all Native Americans,and to the idea that those immigrants had only a small impact both geographically and genealogically in some, as of yet, undiscovered location in Central America. This is because even they cannot square their own scripture to the vast hole of lacking evidence to support it.
Sixth. “Prophetic in nature”. Well, prophecy is subjective in nature. Much like the reading of tarot cards, astrology or seances, its interpretation is in the mind of the believers. Even Christian prophecies of Jesus were not understood until much later. And even today most Jews do not believe Jesus was the fulfillment of the old testament prophecies. They are not by nature objective or unassailable.
So to call the BOM prophetic in nature is a very nebulous and subjective assertion. Therefore, as an argument, it bears no weight is determining the truth of the BOM. To compare, Nostradamus had a better and more specific track record of prophetic visions being realized than the BOM.
Ok, if you’ve read this far let me say this. This was a rather nit picky and also non-scientific refutation of the apocryphal nature of Greg’s first question that is supposed to lead us to the conclusion that the BOM is true. It’s a silly question to both in structure and in terms of a convincing argument.
I have looked at the LDS religion for many decades on and off. I’ve read the BOM cover to cover. I’ve read D&Cs and PoGP. I’ve had many friends that are LDS and they are great people. I’ve also seen some of the damage that trying to always “look good” to be a good Mormon has done to people. But that isn’t inherent to the LDS’s. I’ve seen that in every religion, in sports, in academic and social settings. In every situation there is a different underlying rational for why things are supposed to look good and for people to be happy. The fallacy is that happiness proves the faith to be true.
Here’s what I have found to be true of the LDS faith over the years. After over a century and a half of refinements the LDS faith has corrected themselves and distilled their faith down to a very palatable christian-like belief system. The faces of Mormonism, the families, are beautiful well mannered, smiling, service oriented people.
However, the history/theology of the LDS religion is still incredibly suspect. Both from the viewpoint of the atheist/agnostic and people of other faiths, especially Christians.
I like analogies. The analogy I use when describing the LDS church is that of laying stonework. I usually go with thinking about a large stone courtyard.
The actual stones represent the tenets of the belief system (Jesus is the Son of God, man is sinful, Israelites migrated to the America’s before Jesus was born,…), the mortar between the stones is the intangibles such as faith, personal revelation, burning bosoms, etc that is required to hold those tenets together and enable someone to believe in it.
When I look at the BOM and the faith that it espouses, that courtyard is very white and uniform as it is mostly comprised of mortar with small stones spread thinly throughout.
I say this because after every argument in favor of the BOM being a true historical account ( which is necessary to the entire faith being true regardless of what the LDS church may now say) has been defeated the final argument is always, “Well you haven’t sincerely read it and had God show you its true with a burning in your chest”.
While it is true that faith is the glue that holds any religion together, I find the overwhelming evidence to be more than sufficient to say that Mormonisn held together more by unquestioning faith in the organization than divine origin. To believe in the LDS faith takes either blind adherence or an Olympic level of mental gymnastics to not see all of the logical fallacies and incongruousness with science, biology and archaeology.
God has never told us to abandon the brain He blessed us with to believe in Him. He never told us to that the world is designed to obscure the truth of His Gospel. Yet these things seem to be necessary to believe to be a Mormon.
I believe there is a God. That there is only one god and He has and will ever be eternal. I believe that Jesus is his only Son who died for the forgiveness of our sins so that we might have eternal life with Him in heaven if we proclaim him as our Savior. I believe that when Jesus said, “It is finished”, that it was fully true. There was no need for any other actions on His part. Salvation had come to all nations for all time at that moment.
A question was also asked about the idea that satan helped write the BOM through Smith. The question being why would satan write a testimony of Jesus. Well if it were a false testimony then that would be right up satan’s alley wouldn’t it? It’s said that to make a ship steer off course and miss its target you don’t need to make it turn completely around. In the old days of steering by a compass a small magnet was all that was needed to make the compass read false. And after days and weeks on that course the ship would be very very far away from its intended destination. It has also been said that the best lies are the ones that sound like the truth. Very few people are satanists. But billions of people are in religions that have fine sounding beliefs that do not lead them to Jesus.
So my question is this; Are the revelations of J.Smith truly from God or a great trick to send millions more people on the wrong course from Jesus? The answer to that is worth more than a knee jerk emotional response. Since the implications affect our eternal souls it should take our deepest levels of introspection, intellectual honesty and civil discourse.
I like and appreciate your analytical post.
“Are the revelations of J.Smith truly from God or a great trick to send millions more people on the wrong course from Jesus? The answer to that is worth more than a knee jerk emotional response.”
Christ said: “you will KNOW them by their Fruits”.
I don’t even care about a religion’s texts, doctrines, or “beliefs”. I look at the people of a religion, and that tells me everything about them.
What are the ACTUAL Fruits of mormonism, and are they Christ-like?
The most glaring fruits are those pretentious, exclusive, gawdy temples. I don’t remember Christ turning people away or saying anybody was too “impure” or “sinful” to join him….and much of his preaching was in the wilderness….not in showy expensive temples.
MONEY, MONEY, MONEY appears, from an outsider perspective, to be the primary object of mormonism. Mormons are not shy about flaunting wealth. Mormons clearly LOVE money.
All I see in ANY religion is materialism. Strip the pretense of religion or “belief” from a christian, a jew, a mormon, a muslim, a hindu, and an atheist, and you’ll be left with six CONSUMERS who survive by money. All people from all religions live the same consumer lifestyles, pay the same taxes, drive the same cars, carry the same phones, use the same social media, see the same movies, etc….the only TRUE DEMONSTRABLE faith on this planet is faith in money and the central bank systems of the world….regardless of a person’s STATED “beliefs”, everybody’s ACTIONS and CHOICES are aligned with the religion of the dollar, which IS a faith-based construct: “value” only exists by consumer faith. If your faith is in the dollar, it is not in God.
NOBODY, in ANY religion, actually DOES what Christ TAUGHT. People don’t even do the simple things, like “give no thought to the clothes you wear”. Society is even designed so it is taboo NOT to plan an “outfit” or to wear “nice professional” clothing….try actually DOING what Christ said, and you’ll likely find yourself turned away even from your church!
I have yet to see ANY church or religion that Truly Bears Christlike Fruits.
I don’t really care one way or the other if the events of some book actually happened or not. What matters is the hearts of the people claiming to follow Christ, and the state of people’s hearts is self-evident. Mormonism, at large, has NOTHING to do with Christ (except in name), and EVERYTHING to do with money, power, and appearance. That is self-evident and incontrovertible.
Even if the book is “true”, the religion is comprised of self-righteous, exclusive materialists. “They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” Mormonism is Just NOT the TRUE Church of Christ…that IS self-evident.
The closest DEMONSTRATION of Christ-likeness I’ve seen are in “homeless” encampments and “hippy communes”….places altogether removed from religious pretense and subjugative books….places that, incidentally, are also the most heavily persecuted by governments and law-enforcement (ironically often BY people claiming to BE christian).
God doesn’t dwell in some ancient book, and you won’t find him by making a show of “faith” by following pretentious rules and going to some stuffy temple each week.
God is ALIVE.
Too many people are lost in their heads, getting trapped in pretentious and deceptive word games that really have nothing to do with God. Too many people are distracted by labels and identities.
Back to your question: I think Satan has a hand in every major religion. If hierarchies are established, money is collected, and behavioral precepts are strictly enforced, then religion is far more likely from the evil imagination of man than from God Himself. I think religion is worn as a veil….a consumer whose taxes pay for war, whose purchases required people to be killed for the acquisition of resources, and whose waste pollutes the planet and contributes to more deaths, can simply wear a “Godly” veil by identifying as “religious”, and suddenly the sins and consequences of their daily choices are colored “holy” or “righteous” or “justified”. “God” can be invoked as a basis of authority for power over the behaviors of others.
It just seems like religion enables religious people to CALL the consequences of THEIR OWN CHOICES “evil”, while mitigating the burden of accountability FOR their choices to a “savior” or “god”. Rather than actually BEING Christ-like, it allows people to wear sin under an umbrella of “salvation”…and everybody paints Christ in their own image anyway, so their own behaviors are always “justified”. I have never even met two christians who agree about “God’s will” or the sort of person Christ was. If any religion was true, then their “faith” would not BE nebulous or subjective.
I accept the immutable Reality of One Supreme Creator, and the fallen evil nature of Man and the Need for Salvation, but I do not see any incorporated religion that Truly Leads people TO Christ or Salvation.
You can’t just pick and choose “if this is true then that is true”. J.S. was a brilliant man and con artist. It would have been easy for him to come up with and add plenty of things to his book over the years with the resources available to him.
Do you really believe that there are people who are wearing Quaker type clothes that are 6 feet tall living on the moon?!
Pam Lane, 72 yr old LDS Gall here ! I really appreciate your little written testimony on the B of M ! I have an old, but in good condition, typed copy, I got off your site yrs. ago, I believe. I share it around ! I am a Ward Missionary for many yrs! I make copies for the Missionaries. ( I need a better copy). I, too, know the Book of Mormon is that true Divine keystone ! :}
Every evidence here is so obviously incorrect that only someone who takes your word blindly without attempting to validate it would be able to come to the same conclusion.
You have been deceived by Satan, the master manipulator and father of lies, into believing your emotions instead of the truth.